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Post by tesoe on Sept 28, 2017 15:52:21 GMT
If in theme is the only way to play it also makes it easier to get new players. Each theme is like a mini faction. If you are only interested in the models in a particular theme you have a lot less to buy. Which makes it easier to get into the game. And once you are into the game you'll probably eventually but things outside of the theme that attracted you. And lowering the barrier to entry into this game is something everyone should want. Which is perfectly acceptable. I have an inron fang theme left from my Khador stuff. I will likely buy the new christmas solo for it. But I have no interest in the rest of the stuff in Khador now. That said though. Thememachine would not be the issue if themes were created equal. If every single theme was considered equal in power level, people would not have nearly the apprehension or the frustration towards themes. But you gets spit ball, bottom of the barrel, themes like the teased druid theme or Children of the Dragon or something that just does not make any model involved definitively "better" but you get things like Dark Industries. Which is undoubtedly making Heavy cryx jacks better. Or, to beat a dead dragon, Oracles of Annihilation. Completely nonsensical and the benefits do nothing directly for the beasts. But it takes a full 100points of beasts every time and does considerably better than any other option in faction. Its not like they are putting out bad things on purpose. PPs made up of real human beings. Just like you or me. Sometimes they are going to make mistakes. Sometimes those are going to be big mistakes. Just look at all the PR nightmares since the middle of MK2. We each have to decide for ourselves if those mistakes are going to drive us out of the game or not. This is a game. It's a toy. It's a very expensive toy also. You'll have to decide for yourself if you get more joy or anguish from this toy, and then decide if that joy or anguish is worth the high expenses.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2017 16:24:55 GMT
... I rememebr when Una 2 and Wumrwood were on top and everyone and their mother cried for nerfs. I and most people agreed they needed nerfs. I remember when Karachev was all over the place with his bazillion mad dogs and people cried for nerfs...and most people agreed he needed them. I remember when people cried that madrack 2 was OP and needed a nerf despite him not preforming at top tournaments. and look what happened. ... I was against the utter and obvious necessity of the nerfs... I kinda feel vindicated. WTC 2016: Faction Caster %Win Circle Orboros Wurmwood 1 50% Khador Karchev 1 59% Madrak 2 38% WTC 2017: Faction Caster Games Win% Cryx Coven 1 60 76% Grymkin Dreamer 1 25 76% Cryx Skarre 1 11 73% Cryx Deneghra 1 79 66% (This is the top of caster's win% only including casters with 10+ games)
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 28, 2017 16:39:28 GMT
If in theme is the only way to play it also makes it easier to get new players. Each theme is like a mini faction. If you are only interested in the models in a particular theme you have a lot less to buy. Which makes it easier to get into the game. And once you are into the game you'll probably eventually but things outside of the theme that attracted you. And lowering the barrier to entry into this game is something everyone should want. Which is perfectly acceptable. I have an iron fang theme left from my Khador stuff. I will likely buy the new christmas solo for it. But I have no interest in the rest of the stuff in Khador now. That said though. Thememachine would not be the issue if themes were created equal. If every single theme was considered equal in power level, people would not have nearly the apprehension or the frustration towards themes. But you gets spit ball, bottom of the barrel, themes like the teased druid theme or Children of the Dragon or something that just does not make any model involved definitively "better" but you get things like Dark Industries. Which is undoubtedly making Heavy cryx jacks better. Or, to beat a dead dragon, Oracles of Annihilation. Completely nonsensical and the benefits do nothing directly for the beasts. But it takes a full 100points of beasts every time and does considerably better than any other option in faction. You think CotD is bottom of the barrel? I've seen it not only get played but win tournaments. Not little local steamrollers but national ones. This OoA is the only good thing in legion argument is the excuse of people too lazy to try the others.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Sept 28, 2017 16:46:09 GMT
... I rememebr when Una 2 and Wumrwood were on top and everyone and their mother cried for nerfs. I and most people agreed they needed nerfs. I remember when Karachev was all over the place with his bazillion mad dogs and people cried for nerfs...and most people agreed he needed them. I remember when people cried that madrack 2 was OP and needed a nerf despite him not preforming at top tournaments. and look what happened. ... I was against the utter and obvious necessity of the nerfs... I kinda feel vindicated. WTC 2016: Faction Caster %Win Circle Orboros Wurmwood 1 50% Khador Karchev 1 59% Madrak 2 38% WTC 2017: Faction Caster Games Win% Cryx Coven 1 60 76% Grymkin Dreamer 1 25 76% Cryx Skarre 1 11 73% Cryx Deneghra 1 79 66% (This is the top of caster's win% only including casters with 10+ games) Holy heck that's eye-opening. There are factors like new themes added, models modified by CID etc. I don't know what the sum total of influence that would dial it up quite so much though.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 28, 2017 17:31:41 GMT
Which is perfectly acceptable. I have an iron fang theme left from my Khador stuff. I will likely buy the new christmas solo for it. But I have no interest in the rest of the stuff in Khador now. That said though. Thememachine would not be the issue if themes were created equal. If every single theme was considered equal in power level, people would not have nearly the apprehension or the frustration towards themes. But you gets spit ball, bottom of the barrel, themes like the teased druid theme or Children of the Dragon or something that just does not make any model involved definitively "better" but you get things like Dark Industries. Which is undoubtedly making Heavy cryx jacks better. Or, to beat a dead dragon, Oracles of Annihilation. Completely nonsensical and the benefits do nothing directly for the beasts. But it takes a full 100points of beasts every time and does considerably better than any other option in faction. You think CotD is bottom of the barrel? I've seen it not only get played but win tournaments. Not little local steamrollers but national ones. This OoA is the only good thing in legion argument is the excuse of people too lazy to try the others. You can take you half-ass assumptions elsewhere. I play CoD 10 times more often than I play Oracles. I have a higher win rate with Kryssa than any other caster. Don't tell me I'm too lazy to try sub par options. CotD Is poorly designed. Mediocre in support and just blatantly does not compare to the strength of other themes. Yes the models in the theme are good. But unyielding on Nephilim doesn't make a Swordsman any better than it already was. It's a joke of an infantry theme. The only feet it has to stand on is the addition of Azrael and Zuriel. Even then 50% of that addition is still a lack luster piece for it's point cost. As for winning tournaments, Please refer to the WTC list breakdown and tell me that CotD and Ravens are so fantastically represented. conflictchamber.com/?event=15"Little steamroller" or not. That's still not the global scene. In my Local meta I do well against Cygnar. Does that mean Legion is OP and Cygnar needs a buff?
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 28, 2017 20:22:56 GMT
Now that Ravens is brought up, how is our first theme list doing anyway? I don't hear people crapping on it like the do Children, but that's mostly because I don't hear it getting talked about at all.
I'm gonna assume it's okay, but the current meta doesn't support it since it mainly focuses on killing 1box infantry, but without the precision or RFP that would hate on something like Ghost Fleet.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 28, 2017 20:34:21 GMT
Now that Ravens is brought up, how is our first theme list doing anyway? I don't hear people crapping on it like the do Children, but that's mostly because I don't hear it getting talked about at all. I'm gonna assume it's okay, but the current meta doesn't support it since it mainly focuses on killing 1box infantry, but without the precision or RFP that would hate on something like Ghost Fleet. It's a weird one because it doesn't actually improve anything. Your infantry doesn't get better, nor do your warbeasts. It's just kind of... there, if you really like Grotesques.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 28, 2017 20:45:16 GMT
Y'all should probably find a different game other than wargames if this sort of thing bothers you then. Wargames are a lot more complicated than super mario brothers or go. If a single faction is winning 60+% of games at multiple events the issue is not "wargames dude...it happens" The issue is with that specific faction. Other cryx players have acknowledged this. I left 40K because Eldar was dominating every tournament and My local group I would get stomped even in "casual" games because I played a weak faction (tyranids) I came to Warmachine and hordes because even if i brought an atypical or unoptimized list I could still play locally or play pick up games and know I had a leg in the fight. (within reason) When a faction is so strong it dominates the high end tournament scene then can you imagine what it is doing to local meta's? When new player goes to game night and watches one faction crapping all over the other factions it isn't exactly encouraging. I rememebr when Una 2 and Wumrwood were on top and everyone and their mother cried for nerfs. I and most people agreed they needed nerfs. I remember when Karachev was all over the place with his bazillion mad dogs and people cried for nerfs...and most people agreed he needed them. I remember when people cried that madrack 2 was OP and needed a nerf despite him not preforming at top tournaments. and look what happened. What makes cryx so special that it gets to sit at the top and wait for other factions to power creep their way to their current level. Power creep is bad for any wargame. It is what killed 40K for me (and a lot of other people) and it pushes new players away. Yes dude, it is "wargames, it happens" unless you can name a single popular wargame that it doesnt (you cant and if you try i'll go to their boards and find posts of their players proving you wrong). Your beef is that during a big tournament (team tournament, shitty concept for balance to begin with) this faction was on top and hadn't been nerfed yet. Life goes on, itl get nerfed or the meta will change. If you can't handle the fact that wargame balance almost universally comes in these waves where different factions end up on top to the squealing of other faction players before new models/rules/meta changes it, you and everyone around you will probably be happier in another hobby.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 28, 2017 20:58:27 GMT
Now that Ravens is brought up, how is our first theme list doing anyway? I don't hear people crapping on it like the do Children, but that's mostly because I don't hear it getting talked about at all. I'm gonna assume it's okay, but the current meta doesn't support it since it mainly focuses on killing 1box infantry, but without the precision or RFP that would hate on something like Ghost Fleet. It's exactly what the rules define it to be. It's not trying to be anything it's not. The beasts are limited but are mostly liked. Carni-chassis heavies are just not up to par. But Anegls are loved. Seraphs are faction defining, and Neraphs are kind of the best piece traders we have. With how the meta is shifting to adapt to SR17 with more infantry and more scoring capacity, I can imagine Ravens will fair much better once Oracles gets corrected.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 28, 2017 21:03:27 GMT
Now that Ravens is brought up, how is our first theme list doing anyway? I don't hear people crapping on it like the do Children, but that's mostly because I don't hear it getting talked about at all. I'm gonna assume it's okay, but the current meta doesn't support it since it mainly focuses on killing 1box infantry, but without the precision or RFP that would hate on something like Ghost Fleet. It's exactly what the rules define it to be. It's not trying to be anything it's not. The beasts are limited but are mostly liked. Carni-chassis heavies are just not up to par. But Anegls are loved. Seraphs are faction defining, and Neraphs are kind of the best piece traders we have. With how the meta is shifting to adapt to SR17 with more infantry and more scoring capacity, I can imagine Ravens will fair much better once Oracles gets corrected. It will never replace a single Oracles list if it doesn't reward you for taking beasts.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 28, 2017 21:22:40 GMT
mcdermottExcept it's not just the team tournamemt where cryx dominates. You can't expect people to not complain when things are OP. This game is fairly balanced compared to others the playerbase really likes things to be balanced (as possible) to encourage more tactical play and to reward skilled players. It's silly to sit there and just say "eventually it will be someone else" and be content. It should be everyone's desire that the game is healthy and as balanced as possible. Right now cryx is throwing off the health of the game. People need to be vocal when there is obvious imbalance like what's going on with Denny 1 ghost fleet and coven. It makes the devs see those issues and address them. I'm sure you were asking for Una 2 and Wurmwood nerfs like everyone else
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 28, 2017 21:48:32 GMT
It makes them close their forums is what it does.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 28, 2017 22:05:59 GMT
It's exactly what the rules define it to be. It's not trying to be anything it's not. The beasts are limited but are mostly liked. Carni-chassis heavies are just not up to par. But Anegls are loved. Seraphs are faction defining, and Neraphs are kind of the best piece traders we have. With how the meta is shifting to adapt to SR17 with more infantry and more scoring capacity, I can imagine Ravens will fair much better once Oracles gets corrected. It will never replace a single Oracles list if it doesn't reward you for taking beasts. That's my point. Until Oracles is changed, Ravens will not be as popular or competitive. Oracles is a dubm beast theme anyways. It's all about magic, magic units/solo, and warlocks casting spells. It should be a magical based infantry theme. We need a real beast theme to replace it and fix oracles to be a sensical design.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 28, 2017 22:11:27 GMT
It will never replace a single Oracles list if it doesn't reward you for taking beasts. That's my point. Until Oracles is changed, Ravens will not be as popular or competitive. Oracles is a dubm beast theme anyways. It's all about magic, magic units/solo, and warlocks casting spells. It should be a magical based infantry theme. We need a real beast theme to replace it and fix oracles to be a sensical design. Yeah, I agree Oracles could use a rework. But that won't make anyone take Ravens - it's an awful theme that does nothing to help any of your army.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 28, 2017 22:18:02 GMT
Ravens would be a great theme force for the days of light infantry spam. Seems like itd thresh infantry EVENHARDER, but beyond that taking AD, and having a big army full of advanced deploy and ambush seems like a really good scenario army. I just dont think many of the infantry options have the strength or defense to make simply walking around them a poor solution.
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