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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2017 14:38:43 GMT
Or alternatively, you could have a game where one faction goes to WTC with 95% of it's lists in theme, and proceeds to win 71% of it's games, while another faction goes to the WTC with a little over 50% of it's lists in theme, and does much more poorly. Themes are a BIG Firetrucking advantage. Some factions have good themes, others do not, and hyperbole aside, it's asinine to think that they're good for game balance as it stands. You're drawing conclusions based on an incomplete field. Yup, this year stunk on Ice, but with the new theme lists and CID you can bet itl end up being addressed as opposed to mk1 or 2 where you most likely just got to wait until a new edition.
That's PP's excuse, do you have license to use it?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 28, 2017 14:40:31 GMT
Theme forces are being used to solve model bloat and prevent this game collapsing under it's own weight. Yes the downside of that is that list building is less creative, but that is a sacrifice PP are willing to make for the longevity of this game.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 28, 2017 14:59:37 GMT
Or alternatively, you could have a game where one faction goes to WTC with 95% of it's lists in theme, and proceeds to win 71% of it's games, while another faction goes to the WTC with a little over 50% of it's lists in theme, and does much more poorly. Themes are a BIG Firetrucking advantage. Some factions have good themes, others do not, and hyperbole aside, it's asinine to think that they're good for game balance as it stands. You're drawing conclusions based on an incomplete field. Yup, this year stunk on Ice, but with the new theme lists and CID you can bet itl end up being addressed as opposed to mk1 or 2 where you most likely just got to wait until a new edition. That might be true, but it's irrelevant to the state of the game now. some of us prefer not to give pp a free pass for releasing an unfinished game, and Firetrucking up balance so badly that it'll likely be another 2 years before some factions feel balanced again.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 28, 2017 15:01:17 GMT
I don't see why themes cannot be used for exactly that purpose, while still keeping non-themes playable.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 28, 2017 15:08:25 GMT
You're drawing conclusions based on an incomplete field. Yup, this year stunk on Ice, but with the new theme lists and CID you can bet itl end up being addressed as opposed to mk1 or 2 where you most likely just got to wait until a new edition.
That's PP's excuse, do you have license to use it?
Y'all should probably find a different game other than wargames if this sort of thing bothers you then. Wargames are a lot more complicated than super mario brothers or go.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2017 15:10:29 GMT
That's PP's excuse, do you have license to use it?
Y'all should probably find a different game other than wargames if this sort of thing bothers you then. Wargames are a lot more complicated than super mario brothers or go.
It's the opposite... I'm old enough not to buy into that. It's a circular excuse.
I've been on the receiving end of bad company policies (not talking GW here) and it usually comes back to bite them in the ass.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 28, 2017 15:11:24 GMT
If I'm honest I don't really understand the idea of playing Warmachine Casually.
I mean, I get the idea that some people might just play, because their friends do, but if we're honest Warmachine is terrible for this. Unless you have put the reps in at some point you will get totally demolished to the point of it being awkward.
Obviously I'd rather it wasn't this way, but as is often the case, Warmachine's biggest strength is also a weakness. The game is probably the best build competitive war game. It has the most solid, clear rules and it offers huge strategic depth. This means that players often invest thousands of hours into mastering the game, which in turn can intimidate new players and exclude more casual once a month players.
PP will tell you warmachine is for everyone and they should, because it's a product and they shouldn't purposefully exclude people, but if I played a game a month I certainly wouldn't choose warmachine. I'd play a game with less depth where players don't take it as seriously. Hell I used to play 40k less than 10 times a year and still found myself on the top tables winning best in faction at the big Warhammer World events. It wasn't a game that required a huge time commitment so it was perfect.
I do get the social side, I love the community around Warmachine and have made many friends at huge tournaments here in the UK, but if I didn't have those ties and I didn't have the time to "git gud" I'd take Blood Bowl or Necromunda down my local club instead I think.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 28, 2017 15:22:03 GMT
Or alternatively, you could have a game where one faction goes to WTC with 95% of it's lists in theme, and proceeds to win 71% of it's games, while another faction goes to the WTC with a little over 50% of it's lists in theme, and does much more poorly. Themes are a BIG Firetrucking advantage. Some factions have good themes, others do not, and hyperbole aside, it's asinine to think that they're good for game balance as it stands. You're drawing conclusions based on an incomplete field. Yup, this year stunk on Ice, but with the new theme lists and CID you can bet itl end up being addressed as opposed to mk1 or 2 where you most likely just got to wait until a new edition. Tomorrow, tomrrow, there's always tomorrow - it's always a day away.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 28, 2017 15:24:56 GMT
I don't see why themes cannot be used for exactly that purpose, while still keeping non-themes playable. I don't think PP has an interest in keeping non-theme playable.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 28, 2017 15:26:07 GMT
I don't see why themes cannot be used for exactly that purpose, while still keeping non-themes playable. I don't think PP has an interest in keeping non-theme playable. Now THAT I can believe. I don't even want to think about how many models I needed to buy in Thememachine, just to keep playing.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 28, 2017 15:28:48 GMT
I think they want to force us into playing themes because it'll make it easier them to balance the game.
Example: If they know that people will only be playing a new Kayazy model in the themes that allow Kayazy they have a lot fewer interactions to test and balance against. Rather than balancing that model against everything in both Mercs and Khador.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 28, 2017 15:33:28 GMT
If in theme is the only way to play it also makes it easier to get new players. Each theme is like a mini faction. If you are only interested in the models in a particular theme you have a lot less to buy. Which makes it easier to get into the game. And once you are into the game you'll probably eventually but things outside of the theme that attracted you. And lowering the barrier to entry into this game is something everyone should want.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 28, 2017 15:39:22 GMT
That's PP's excuse, do you have license to use it?
Y'all should probably find a different game other than wargames if this sort of thing bothers you then. Wargames are a lot more complicated than super mario brothers or go. If a single faction is winning 60+% of games at multiple events the issue is not "wargames dude...it happens" The issue is with that specific faction. Other cryx players have acknowledged this. I left 40K because Eldar was dominating every tournament and My local group I would get stomped even in "casual" games because I played a weak faction (tyranids) I came to Warmachine and hordes because even if i brought an atypical or unoptimized list I could still play locally or play pick up games and know I had a leg in the fight. (within reason) When a faction is so strong it dominates the high end tournament scene then can you imagine what it is doing to local meta's? When new player goes to game night and watches one faction crapping all over the other factions it isn't exactly encouraging. I rememebr when Una 2 and Wumrwood were on top and everyone and their mother cried for nerfs. I and most people agreed they needed nerfs. I remember when Karachev was all over the place with his bazillion mad dogs and people cried for nerfs...and most people agreed he needed them. I remember when people cried that madrack 2 was OP and needed a nerf despite him not preforming at top tournaments. and look what happened. What makes cryx so special that it gets to sit at the top and wait for other factions to power creep their way to their current level. Power creep is bad for any wargame. It is what killed 40K for me (and a lot of other people) and it pushes new players away.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 28, 2017 15:43:14 GMT
If in theme is the only way to play it also makes it easier to get new players. Each theme is like a mini faction. If you are only interested in the models in a particular theme you have a lot less to buy. Which makes it easier to get into the game. And once you are into the game you'll probably eventually but things outside of the theme that attracted you. And lowering the barrier to entry into this game is something everyone should want. Which is perfectly acceptable. I have an iron fang theme left from my Khador stuff. I will likely buy the new christmas solo for it. But I have no interest in the rest of the stuff in Khador now. That said though. Thememachine would not be the issue if themes were created equal. If every single theme was considered equal in power level, people would not have nearly the apprehension or the frustration towards themes. But you gets spit ball, bottom of the barrel, themes like the teased druid theme or Children of the Dragon or something that just does not make any model involved definitively "better" but you get things like Dark Industries. Which is undoubtedly making Heavy cryx jacks better. Or, to beat a dead dragon, Oracles of Annihilation. Completely nonsensical and the benefits do nothing directly for the beasts. But it takes a full 100points of beasts every time and does considerably better than any other option in faction.
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Post by copperflame on Sept 28, 2017 15:48:49 GMT
... Or, to beat a dead dragon, Oracles of Annihilation... I LOL at this... <3
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