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Post by custardboy on Sept 26, 2017 0:08:27 GMT
So with the Blindwater CiD coming up, are there any tweaks you guys would like to discuss before it starts up? It will be good to agree on these things now for a general agreement in that forum. I don't know if they'll be willing to look at anything Thornfall. From what I've seen it looks like: Bog Trogs could do with being 9/15 and/or replacing Pull with something useful. Croaks to 10/16, a minor tweak. Don't know if it's even worth the effort. The Witch Doctor needs to do something slightly more (we all have tough!). I think removing the 'faction' clause from Zombify would be a good idea too- lots of non minion players have this dead weight model. Boneswarm... uh, scrap everything and start over. A complete rework.
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Post by galiman on Sept 26, 2017 0:45:49 GMT
Definitely agree on making bogtrogs cheaper. Heck even 8/13 wouldn't be insane and give incentive for the themes that allow minions. I personally want the removal of torpid from the bullsnapper or at least remove the immediate ending of activation afterwards. I think that would be a cool mechanic then. It can charge something eat it and either have enough fury to buy another attack to eat something else or be able to cast its animus. 13/16 at 16 boxes won't break the game. A use for croak hunters would be nice. With the totem hunter they get pretty outclassed. I'm not sure on a change, maybe that'll have to be in a theme force? Something needs to change about the swamp horror but I'm not sure what. And would giving the spitter reload 1 be horrible? Anyone else feel like the thrullg was a light warbeast early in development but they realized that was broken? And yes I agree on boneswarm.
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Post by Gilrornomma on Sept 26, 2017 1:09:05 GMT
So with the Blindwater CiD coming up, are there any tweaks you guys would like to discuss before it starts up? It will be good to agree on these things now for a general agreement in that forum. I don't know if they'll be willing to look at anything Thornfall. From what I've seen it looks like: Bog Trogs could do with being 9/15 and/or replacing Pull with something useful. Croaks to 10/16, a minor tweak. Don't know if it's even worth the effort. The Witch Doctor needs to do something slightly more (we all have tough!). I think removing the 'faction' clause from Zombify would be a good idea too- lots of non minion players have this dead weight model. Boneswarm... uh, scrap everything and start over. A complete rework. Mostly agree. However I think that the boneswarm doesn't need much. Maybe give it 2" melee, and dark shroud. Or maybe just more boxes and more arm to make it tanky. Either would be nice. I just want to be able to run a swarm of them.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 26, 2017 1:51:01 GMT
Agree on all of the above mentioned standouts. Boneswarm and Croak Hunters in particular. The former in my opinion primarily needs a way to collect corpse tokens without commiting. The concept seems to be a slow ramping light warbeast to a potentially high output one. Perhaps a passive collection mechanic with a short radius will do.
The Hunters honestly should just get reworked into a Croak Raider CA and call it a day. Some passive buff to Raiders then beside Gang would be another route. As is, I'd rather take a Trawler every time.
The Swamp Horror isn't meant to be a mean beater natively. Its whole feel is fluffy, but in play is underwhelming. Maybe takong that a step further would help. The Skorne Taskmaster has a rule with its Mancatcher has a nonshakeable -2 DEF and advance-stopping debuff on hit. I think the tentacles would benefit from that, and compensate for the low POW.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 26, 2017 2:19:25 GMT
What about just Murderous on the Swamp Horror? Or if that proves a little too much in WWFF, Snacking? First would make it a threshing machine, second would make it an anti-infantry tank.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 26, 2017 3:38:45 GMT
What about just Murderous on the Swamp Horror? Or if that proves a little too much in WWFF, Snacking? First would make it a threshing machine, second would make it an anti-infantry tank. Murderous wouldn't fix the problem of it being out-threatened my most melee infantry and thereby dying before it can mulch them. At 10/15, even with Impenetrable Flesh it's still going to die to most melee infantry charges, and at SPD 4 with few threat extenders it won't get to them first.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Sept 26, 2017 6:10:07 GMT
Some good points here. Id like to see these changes or something along those lines:
Spitter - make it ROF2 or reload(1) but with a Fury of 4. It's a little lackluster as it is. Or leave it with one shot but make it POW16.
Croak Raiders - Pow12 was too much, pow10 is not enough, how about trying 11? Should be enough before doing anything else.
Croak Hunter - UA to Croak Raiders, they give the unit Stealth (or perhaps concealment?) while they're alive.
Swamp Horror - removing critical amputation and replacing it with Armour Piercing special attack on the beak along with snacking. Could raise it to 15p with these changes. It's still only SPD4.
Boneswarm - Animus could be Ragman style, give Dark Shroud to something within 3"?
Maelok - Make incorp last one round instead of one turn.
JagaJaga - Make her feat something else. Like "enemy models within 5" of a friendly faction model suffers -2ARM and -2DEF" or something like that. Currently she barely has a feat.
Some things I've thought about.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 26, 2017 6:21:23 GMT
I feel like anyone expecting the Spitter to go to ROF 2 or even Reload 1 is going to be disappointed. At that point you've got a cheaper, better Bomber who is harder to hurt at range than the Bomber under stone.
One AOE 4 Continuous Corrosion shot is pretty consistent in terms of a ranged heavy's output.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 26, 2017 6:37:20 GMT
I don't feel like more than a small handful of things would get looked at. After all, most stuff is fine even if it isn't amazing. And saying Maelok's feat should last a round really takes away from anything else discussed, that's much too strong to even consider.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Sept 26, 2017 6:49:36 GMT
First few times I played him I played with incorp for one round (because we read the feat wrong) and it's not like it as broken. Could remove the +2ARM buff and just have the incorp thing instead. But yeah, not that big of a deal, Maelok is fine as is and he'll love the Dracodile.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Sept 26, 2017 6:51:42 GMT
I feel like anyone expecting the Spitter to go to ROF 2 or even Reload 1 is going to be disappointed. At that point you've got a cheaper, better Bomber who is harder to hurt at range than the Bomber under stone. One AOE 4 Continuous Corrosion shot is pretty consistent in terms of a ranged heavy's output. Not really, 2 less boxes, 2 less DEF, 2 less POW and 1 less FURY. A heavy with one pow 14 shot is not that good.
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Post by DoktorGrym on Sept 26, 2017 8:07:49 GMT
The Boneswarm should be able to gain corpse tokens in it's command range and increase it's command range to 5". If Cryx Jacks can get souls from 5" away and a few other units in the game can gather corpse tokens from some pretty decent ranges. Then give it a circular vision, it's a Swarm of bones that can sense life. And Thresher as a special attack. 2" reach would rock.
Having a cheap small based infantry unit would rock, tweaking the Bog Trog Ambushes to fit that roll probably isn't going to happen, but tweaking them to match their current point range could. Apparition could be helpful or reposition the common bump they have really handed out in MK3.
Speaking of which, reposition 3" on the swamp horror would provide it with some of its will follow after Prey flavor, and how about Parry, with all those limbs it should be able to tie up enemy attacks. I feel elasticity could be replaced, Crawling Chaos borrowed from Legions Proteus give it a completely different feel reminiscent of the fluff in the monsternomican. Providing a model that can tie up all sorts of models. Keep the other stuff the same. Chain attack isn't super necessary, but would be nice.
I'm inclined that the splitter could be tweaked, as can the Bull Snapper (I feel steady would help the Bull Snapper). The Splitter should get it's bite POW lowered (1 or 2 lower) and gain crit armor piercing.
KSW
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Post by DoktorGrym on Sept 26, 2017 8:12:27 GMT
I do like the dark shroud idea for the Bone Swarm, been away from my tablet and saw that suggestion.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 26, 2017 9:44:36 GMT
Not really, 2 less boxes, 2 less DEF, 2 less POW and 1 less FURY. A heavy with one pow 14 shot is not that good. Fewer boxes and defence balance out against Carapace. One less Fury versus needing to spend that Fury to get the same range. Two less power versus Corrosion. If it goes to Reload 1, even if it stays at Fury 3, I can't imagine it'll be cheaper than the Bomber's 19. Off the top of my head, the Bomber is the only heavy I can think of capable of buying multiple AOE attacks, and I'm pretty sure that's intentional. The Spitter is very much in the same ballpark as other AOE heavies like Destroyers, Ravagores, Mules, and Cannoneers. Any argument you can make to up its ROF could easily be applied to them, and they don't exist in factions with Ancillary Attack or have access to Counterblast as an animus.
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pox
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 59
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Post by pox on Sept 26, 2017 10:34:14 GMT
yeah spitters are a massive improvement over MK2 and they where used a lot back then. The extra 1" on the radius, carapace and counterblast is all ace- really don't see any need to change them. Targ can always get you a second shot, and with Rage from a wrastler they are pretty tasty in combat to boot. (nearly had a raged spitter one round a mountain king under stone! not bad for a shooty heavy.)
Boneswarms are still meh - either as mentioned an aura for collecting bones or dark shroud would be a worthy and themed addition. Bull Snappers - really REALLY need a change of animus, they are hardly seen in any lists any more as the animus is pretty worthless on a light and a caster is better off camping 2 fury then putting up spiny growth on themself - otherwise they are perfectly fine as is. Swamp Horror - is ok, the only problem is the wrastler simply outclasses it in most cases especially as it is only Fury3, with the addition of 1" melee ranges on warbeasts its animus lost a little lustre as well. Either needs to be cheaper or have some sort of boost. Wraster - we all know this is awesome.
no problems with any of our units or casters. Bog trog ambushers have always served me well easily getting their points back each game. Lynus on the other hand = why oh why would they ever be taken?
Croak hunters - yeah nice but again suffer from being outclassed by the totem hunter - not sure what they could do their? Thrullg - still a dead duck even for free, all he needs is something/anything to help him get up the board and not get shot to ribbons - prowl, stealth, concealment - something. I think witch doctors are fine as is, only posse really have innate tough so he is still useful to protect shamblers, nyss hunters, croak raiders etc. I would have liked Bog Trog Trawlers to activate pull on a hit rather then on damage but that is just me as it seems to have to go through a lot of hoops to get a drag. (have to get within 8" range, have to hit (and with short range they might be in melee?), have to damage, they have to be of equal/smaller base size and have to have no models/terrain in the way of the movement to get 1 bonus attack in CC. ) Might as well just say if the stars are aligned....
Theme forces are good. So yeah in a nutshell the only blindwater things I would like to change are Bullsnapper, Boneswarm, Swamp horror, Lynus, Thrullg and potentially Croak hunters/trawlers Everything else seems to be ok for their points not game broken but certainly workable.
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