Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Oct 9, 2017 3:32:37 GMT
Except that's an argument for Ghost Fleet being overpowered/meta bending, not Deneghra1. 3/4 of those have nothing to do with Deneghra1, and are just as problematic when Ghost Fleet is being run by Terminus, Asphyxious1, Coven, or anyone else. Deneghra1 wasn't & isn't bending the meta at all without Ghost Fleet, but the WTC stats show that Ghost Fleet can still win just fine without her. Deneghra1 currently needs Ghost Fleet, but Ghost Fleet doesn't need her. How is Deneghra1 the meta bender here? 3/4 of those are about ghost fleet, but not each point is equally weighted. In practice it's often not about the recurring rat 4 guys it's about the +7 power swing as well as extreme control of the table granted by Denny. If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus. Surely if people are preparing to take on the stronger Deneghra1 meta bending Ghost Fleet they should be able to handle the non meta bending Terminus & Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleets? Or is it just that people want Deneghra1 nerfed so badly they're refusing to acknowledge that she's not the real problem. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 9, 2017 4:11:43 GMT
3/4 of those are about ghost fleet, but not each point is equally weighted. In practice it's often not about the recurring rat 4 guys it's about the +7 power swing as well as extreme control of the table granted by Denny. If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus. Surely if people are preparing to take on the stronger Deneghra1 meta bending Ghost Fleet they should be able to handle the non meta bending Terminus & Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleets? Or is it just that people want Deneghra1 nerfed so badly they're refusing to acknowledge that she's not the real problem. There can be problems in more places than 1 piece. Lich still has a +5 armour swing. If I could face a Cryx pairing and be assured I wouldn't face Denny 1, the lists I would be able to bring is higher than without. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 9, 2017 5:34:19 GMT
3/4 of those are about ghost fleet, but not each point is equally weighted. In practice it's often not about the recurring rat 4 guys it's about the +7 power swing as well as extreme control of the table granted by Denny. If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus. Surely if people are preparing to take on the stronger Deneghra1 meta bending Ghost Fleet they should be able to handle the non meta bending Terminus & Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleets? Or is it just that people want Deneghra1 nerfed so badly they're refusing to acknowledge that she's not the real problem. See, the thing is, Ghost Fleet is NOT a problem when run by those two casters. It's a good list, but it lacks the sheer attrition and assassination capabilities of a Denny1 list. In particular, Terminus doesn't have a great way of swinging armor or defense (and thus plays more of a pure attrition, bricky playstyle) and Gaspy doesn't have any way of swinging defense - given that Revenant crew are Rat 4, and he can't GET the -5 armor swing without getting the target in melee penalty (which incidentally also no-sells CRAs.) Neither of them has an easy source of knockdown, neither has the shitstorm that is Denny1's feat (which is the piece of the puzzle that makes melee RFP non-viable - you know, the only kind of RFP everyone has easy access to, thanks to the various themes?) They are just not on the same level, in terms of either attrition or assassination. While yes, 3/4 of the 4 points I raised are technically the result of Ghost Fleet and not Denny1, she really is the power behind the list. Recurring Rat 4, Pow 10 shots - even with ghost shot - are not frightening in the same way as Rat 8-10, Pow 15-17 shots. Against a Gaspy1 ghost fleet, you can power through the recursion and try to swing an attrition win - it's not easy, but you don't have to deal with the Denny1 feat neutering your ability to get work done for a turn. Against any non-Denny ghost fleet, you can play a much wider stable of casters, without having to worry about the 20" threat pop-and-drop that very nearly requires your caster be spell immune or steady to survive. |
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Post by celeb on Oct 9, 2017 5:56:34 GMT
The same thing could be said for Coven. While not having the Armor Swing and MAT/RAT fixing, they just make 100% sure to deliver the army. This isn't too bad with Ghost Fleet, but Dark Host with Coven is just dumb. I'd even say that Coven Dark host is even stronger than Denny1 Ghost Fleet.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 9, 2017 5:58:41 GMT
The same thing could be said for Coven. While not having the Armor Swing and MAT/RAT fixing, they just make 100% sure to deliver the army. This isn't too bad with Ghost Fleet, but Dark Host with Coven is just dumb. I'd even say that Coven Dark host is even stronger than Denny1 Ghost Fleet. If you read my post on the last page, I firmly believe that both Denny1 and Coven deserve a nerf. |
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Post by skathrex on Oct 9, 2017 12:18:44 GMT
Short back padeling: CID has been very good for the game imo. Sure it misses things, but that just shows how difficult that whole process is. And it also did a lot of good. I don't agree to 100% of what Deller said, but there where some buffs that where the "cherry on top" (Bane Warriors moving tough to the flag was okay and changing the mini feat too. Rest was a bit over the top imo).
To Cryx: I am not a fan of nerving, but I see the problems in the following order:
1. Denny1
2. GF
3. Coven
Coven just hast a few mechanics that "break the rule" Staying in certain range to the ball could help a lot for example.
The Problem with Denny1 and the Denny1 Gf compared to other GF versions is it shuts down 1 large aspect: melee!
All the melee RFP lists have a much harder time against Denny1 compared to any other GF. Or in other words, in a world without a Denny1 GF building a list for lets say Coven Gf and Shade3 Dark Host is a lot easier. For startes you can use casters that aren't KD immune or have stealth. Depending on the casters GF suddenly starts having a problem cracking armor etc. etc.
Dark Host forces you to go Melee because it shuts down Ranged so well. But specifically Denny1 GF really prays on melee.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 9, 2017 12:28:37 GMT
Short back padeling: CID has been very good for the game imo. Sure it misses things, but that just shows how difficult that whole process is. And it also did a lot of good. I don't agree to 100% of what Deller said, but there where some buffs that where the "cherry on top" (Bane Warriors moving tough to the flag was okay and changing the mini feat too. Rest was a bit over the top imo). To Cryx: I am not a fan of nerving, but I see the problems in the following order: 1. Denny1 2. GF 3. Coven Coven just hast a few mechanics that "break the rule" Staying in certain range to the ball could help a lot for example. The Problem with Denny1 and the Denny1 Gf compared to other GF versions is it shuts down 1 large aspect: melee! All the melee RFP lists have a much harder time against Denny1 compared to any other GF. Or in other words, in a world without a Denny1 GF building a list for lets say Coven Gf and Shade3 Dark Host is a lot easier. For startes you can use casters that aren't KD immune or have stealth. Depending on the casters GF suddenly starts having a problem cracking armor etc. etc. Dark Host forces you to go Melee because it shuts down Ranged so well. But specifically Denny1 GF really prays on melee. So would you accept: 1. The Withering no longer stops charges, runs or special attacks. 2. fineish if Denny doesn't give a middle finger to melee anymore? 3. each witch has to stay within CMD (8) of the ball, not necessarily become a unit, as they said they didn't want to do that |
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 9, 2017 12:43:11 GMT
If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus? Is it? |
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Post by skathrex on Oct 9, 2017 12:51:03 GMT
Short back padeling: CID has been very good for the game imo. Sure it misses things, but that just shows how difficult that whole process is. And it also did a lot of good. I don't agree to 100% of what Deller said, but there where some buffs that where the "cherry on top" (Bane Warriors moving tough to the flag was okay and changing the mini feat too. Rest was a bit over the top imo). To Cryx: I am not a fan of nerving, but I see the problems in the following order: 1. Denny1 2. GF 3. Coven Coven just hast a few mechanics that "break the rule" Staying in certain range to the ball could help a lot for example. The Problem with Denny1 and the Denny1 Gf compared to other GF versions is it shuts down 1 large aspect: melee! All the melee RFP lists have a much harder time against Denny1 compared to any other GF. Or in other words, in a world without a Denny1 GF building a list for lets say Coven Gf and Shade3 Dark Host is a lot easier. For startes you can use casters that aren't KD immune or have stealth. Depending on the casters GF suddenly starts having a problem cracking armor etc. etc. Dark Host forces you to go Melee because it shuts down Ranged so well. But specifically Denny1 GF really prays on melee. So would you accept: 1. The Withering no longer stops charges, runs or special attacks. 2. fineish if Denny doesn't give a middle finger to melee anymore? 3. each witch has to stay within CMD (8) of the ball, not necessarily become a unit, as they said they didn't want to do that Not sure about point 1 (not sure in general what to do since i don't want to hit her to hard. Some people suggested feat only in LoS which is fine too), but in general yes, that looks like a good start. Especially since I think Gf will be very difficult to change and not nerf into oblivion. Point 3 is what I would have thought too, either stay within 8" to the ball or within 8" to each other. Making them a Unit would remove to much of what makes them unique. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 9, 2017 12:54:38 GMT
My problem with Denny in Ghost fleet is twofold:
1. She messes with running and charging making running melee into Cryx a fools errand
2. She is a superlative assassin, preventing a lot of casters from playing due to 20" monster assassinations.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Oct 9, 2017 13:55:28 GMT
If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus? Is it? Apparently it is considering literally everyone was gunning for Ghost Fleet at this event & it had a 66.23% win rate compared to Deneghra1's 65.29%. Even without Deneghra1 in the mix Ghost Fleet demolished this event. Deneghra2, Asphyxious1, and Terminus all put up insane win rates with Ghost Fleet as well. It wasn't just Coven & Deneghra1 that crushed the WTC, it was the entire faction. Nothing in the faction had worse than a 50% win rate. If Deneghra1's 65% win rate is "proof of a problem" how is Deneghra2's 63% not also proof of another? Deneghra1 was not a problem in Mark3 until the theme force existed, and she continues to not be a problem outside of the theme force today. Nobody is scared of, or preparing for Denegha1 Dark Host or Scourge of the Broken Coast. The theme force is the problem here, not the caster. |
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Oct 9, 2017 15:05:24 GMT
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Post by elladan52 on Oct 9, 2017 15:05:24 GMT
Apparently it is considering literally everyone was gunning for Ghost Fleet at this event & it had a 66.23% win rate compared to Deneghra1's 65.29%. Even without Deneghra1 in the mix Ghost Fleet demolished this event. Deneghra2, Asphyxious1, and Terminus all put up insane win rates with Ghost Fleet as well. It wasn't just Coven & Deneghra1 that crushed the WTC, it was the entire faction. Nothing in the faction had worse than a 50% win rate. If Deneghra1's 65% win rate is "proof of a problem" how is Deneghra2's 63% not also proof of another? Deneghra1 was not a problem in Mark3 until the theme force existed, and she continues to not be a problem outside of the theme force today. Nobody is scared of, or preparing for Denegha1 Dark Host or Scourge of the Broken Coast. The theme force is the problem here, not the caster. She wasn't a problem because no one was playing cryx. No one is afraid of those lists because people are stupid. |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 9, 2017 15:10:57 GMT
If that were true then why is Ghost Fleet still problematic when run by Asphyxious1 or Terminus. Surely if people are preparing to take on the stronger Deneghra1 meta bending Ghost Fleet they should be able to handle the non meta bending Terminus & Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleets? Or is it just that people want Deneghra1 nerfed so badly they're refusing to acknowledge that she's not the real problem. See, the thing is, Ghost Fleet is NOT a problem when run by those two casters. It's a good list, but it lacks the sheer attrition and assassination capabilities of a Denny1 list. In particular, Terminus doesn't have a great way of swinging armor or defense (and thus plays more of a pure attrition, bricky playstyle) and Gaspy doesn't have any way of swinging defense - given that Revenant crew are Rat 4, and he can't GET the -5 armor swing without getting the target in melee penalty (which incidentally also no-sells CRAs.) Neither of them has an easy source of knockdown, neither has the shitstorm that is Denny1's feat (which is the piece of the puzzle that makes melee RFP non-viable - you know, the only kind of RFP everyone has easy access to, thanks to the various themes?) They are just not on the same level, in terms of either attrition or assassination. While yes, 3/4 of the 4 points I raised are technically the result of Ghost Fleet and not Denny1, she really is the power behind the list. Recurring Rat 4, Pow 10 shots - even with ghost shot - are not frightening in the same way as Rat 8-10, Pow 15-17 shots. Against a Gaspy1 ghost fleet, you can power through the recursion and try to swing an attrition win - it's not easy, but you don't have to deal with the Denny1 feat neutering your ability to get work done for a turn. Against any non-Denny ghost fleet, you can play a much wider stable of casters, without having to worry about the 20" threat pop-and-drop that very nearly requires your caster be spell immune or steady to survive. I think you are both right to a certain extent. I'd like to paraphrase a statement that Sascha (from the winning WTC team) made on a recent podcast (11th hour, HIGHLY recommended, this episode is in English): Denny adds to Ghost Fleet's strength, while Coven covers up its weaknesses. And I think this describes the problem rather well. DennyFleet isn't the only issue. Other Fleet options might even be stronger. DennyFleet however is the most skewed and oppressive. Sascha's conclusion also makes a lot of sense to me: Nerf every part of the issue, but only slightly. A few touches to the "traditionally OP" Cryx casters and maybe some restriction to the incorporeal BS would go a long way, but still leave all of them playable. I also think this is what PP is planning. I think they didn't touch Ghost Fleet right now, because they want to take the time to do well thought-out changes to all these moving parts once the impact of the new themes has become clear. Or at least that si what I am hoping for. |
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Post by psycomonky on Oct 9, 2017 19:44:56 GMT
Terminus grants tough which is a solid defensive buff, especially in the case of an attrition style army.
He just doesn't grant the easy knockdown that Denny grants removing some of the easy assassination wins that Denny gets.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 9, 2017 19:56:45 GMT
Terminus grants tough which is a solid defensive buff, especially in the case of an attrition style army. He just doesn't grant the easy knockdown that Denny grants removing some of the easy assassination wins that Denny gets. The lack of a defense or arm swing makes the attrition MUCH less frightening, and while tough is good, it shares a weakness with the rest of the list to RFP (ie the type many theme forces grant) and, unlike Denny1, the list has no way to stop melee engagement. |
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