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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 7, 2017 11:15:53 GMT
People Witch Hunt anything that makes them need to adapt the lists they want to bring. Wurmwood shit on the powerful gunlines people want to play, better nerf Wurmwood. Today's Witch Hunt is Deneghra1, despite all of the evidence & data pointing to the fact Coven has been the actual problem within Cryx since August 2016, but since they don't force list adaptation like Deneghra1 who cares. The problem is that "list adaptation" often translates to "if you don't devote a list in your pair to dealing with this, GG." That's the place that Wurmwood (and Caine2 and High Reclaimer and una2) was in, and it's the place that D1 Ghost Fleet is in right now. The question isn't "is this list unbeatable", it's "can a list not specifically built for this challenge have a decent game?" I think this is the key point. You can't have themes that are so crazy that any list built to oppose it is can't handle anything else that normally occurs in the game. Every person having to build for a broken "Cryx drop", rather than formats like High ARM, Infantry spam etc... is just a massive reflection of something being too powerful. Yeah the meta changes and there should be multiple strong lists (spread between factions). You can't bring lists for every occasion but your lists should at least cover a few in the meta rather than whole lists dedicated to individual janky cryx themes. |
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Post by Azuresun on Oct 7, 2017 15:57:54 GMT
Yes if you want to be competitive at the highest level you need to devote your lists to dealing with the meta problems. In fact why would you not dedicate all of your lists to doing this in a competitive setting? Why would you think in a meta dominated by Haley, Deneghra, Fyanna, Coven, Karchev, Vlad, Amon, Vyros, Wurmwood, & Issyria you should be playing lists that aren't good into these lists. There is always going to be a group of top lists in the meta, that you need to dedicate yourself to beating. Always, there never hasn't been. Nerf some of them out of the top like Una2, Madrak2, & Caine2 and watch as they're simply replaced by new "OP BS" they just didn't exist previously because the old "OP BS" was keeping them down. If you think nerfing Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet out of the meta is going to mean you are no longer going to need to bring a list specifically built for a specific challenge to have a game you've got another thing coming, because somewhere out there there's just another meta oppressive list that hasn't emerged because Deneghra1 is keeping it down, just like Caine2 & Ossyan were keeping her down, and just like Wurmwood was keeping them down. The meta will always have its oppressors that dictate what's good, you will never change that. That seems an overly pessimistic and black-and-white way to look at the issue. And I didn't say anything about "nerfing them out of the meta", that was all you. I'd be quite happy to see it knocked down to a viable but not dominant choice. There are many lists out there that are hard to deal with in certain ways, or that are strong when they get to do a certain thing--but that thing has counters which are reasonably available without warping list-building for every other faction. But with things like Ghost Fleet, the list of required pieces crosses a certain threshold. There's a difference between "antimagic / Blessed / RFP makes this easier" or This list is really good at doing this, but hates to see this." and "To play this game, you need anti-infantry, RFP snipers, the ability to skip a turn, a way to deal with incorporeal zone-holders, and the ability to not die to arc node assassinations and / or defences-ignoring guns". Not to have an overwhelming advantage or a hard counter, just to have a chance. My own personal standard is that when regular "How do I deal with this list?" topics are popping up in every faction forum, then there's a problem. And it seems to me that PP has done quite a good job of taking that sort of list out the game so far. Sometimes the nerfs have been excessive, but the trend has been steadily towards fewer gear checks. Something has to be best but, again, that doesn't mean it has to be best by a dramatic margin or best in a way that's frustrating or non-interactive to play against. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 8, 2017 4:07:49 GMT
This seems completely false. Cid has been exceptional for players. Huh? How? Many players perceive the game balance not very good. I don't see how the changes and the process is helping players at all in the long run. Its helping the company for sure though. Right now if being for example an "old school" Cryx player, you're required of heavy investments to have chance of succeeding. Battle Engine, double Braiders, double Bwarriors, Revenants, actual heavy warjacks etc were not something people would've owned 1+ year ago unless for specifc niche lists. There sure was Lich2 banes, skarre1 knights and denny1 mercs, but outside of that.. So what they might have are 30 bane knights (7€ a pop) collecting dust. Secondly, if you're not a Cryx player you're facing a similar situation, but on top of that you have to prepare a list for that match up (as pretty much was in mk2). How have the things gone for the better? Meta is really skewed at the moment, playing is as expensive as ever and people are quitting or taking breaks. How is this better than PP doing the balancing themselves? Deller's post pretty much nailed what has happened, and I'm genuinely afraid will continue to happen. I'm not even going to start how awful this is for new players who are starting with a "ready" meta. Bye bye 600€ or so. EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying this is the fault of CID. I just don't think CID has been effective in dealing with balance problems or concerns with investing in the meta. Most players see game balance as being perfectly fine outside some outliers and, to be honest, there are less outliers than there ever have been in the game. The Changes and processes have helped the health of the models. Triumph, Kraye, Siege 2, Trench Busters, Express teams, The Krielstone, Kolgrimma, Borka 2, Madrak 1, etc are all plenty of success stories which have increased peoples abilities to play models that otherwise wouldn't have hit the table. The meta isn't skewed, just talking about it is. SR2017 and themes have brought back a lot of infantryswarms in a big way while not really toppling Jack spamming from being a viable option. The fact that people are buying models is *good* for PP and *good* for the health of the game as more models see realistic, competitive play. Cryx and a very few number of other lists out there are outliers, but CID is helping rebalance things for the better. |
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wishing
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Post by wishing on Oct 8, 2017 8:55:57 GMT
I just don't think CID has been effective in dealing with balance problems or concerns with investing in the meta. Cryx and a very few number of other lists out there are outliers, but CID is helping rebalance things for the better. It seems like you agree that CID is a good thing as a principle, you just disagree about how effective it has been. Not about whether it is good or not, but whether it is good *enough*. |
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Post by jisidro on Oct 8, 2017 9:22:54 GMT
... Cryx and a very few number of other lists out there are outliers, but CID is helping rebalance things for the better. Is there going to be another Bane CID? A Cryx CID? If not, then CID can just power creep and produce more outliers... |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 8, 2017 10:06:23 GMT
I just don't think CID has been effective in dealing with balance problems or concerns with investing in the meta. Cryx and a very few number of other lists out there are outliers, but CID is helping rebalance things for the better. It seems like you agree that CID is a good thing as a principle, you just disagree about how effective it has been. Not about whether it is good or not, but whether it is good *enough*. The outliers for Cryx currently are: 1. Denny 1 (never been in CID) 2. Incorp models (Only Wraith engine was in CID). Cryx is powerful due to Denny 1's gear checks and SR2017's empowering of Incorp models. CID has been extremely successful at making bad models into playable ones. |
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Post by Aegis on Oct 8, 2017 11:20:05 GMT
It seems like you agree that CID is a good thing as a principle, you just disagree about how effective it has been. Not about whether it is good or not, but whether it is good *enough*. The outliers for Cryx currently are: 1. Denny 1 (never been in CID) 2. Incorp models (Only Wraith engine was in CID). Cryx is powerful due to Denny 1's gear checks and SR2017's empowering of Incorp models. CID has been extremely successful at making bad models into playable ones. Aside from Long Gunners that, even if reported multiple times during CID that needed to be discounted more or have some kind of new ability, remain firmly on the shelves. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 8, 2017 11:26:56 GMT
The outliers for Cryx currently are: 1. Denny 1 (never been in CID) 2. Incorp models (Only Wraith engine was in CID). Cryx is powerful due to Denny 1's gear checks and SR2017's empowering of Incorp models. CID has been extremely successful at making bad models into playable ones. Aside from Long Gunners that, even if reported multiple times during CID that needed to be discounted more or have some kind of new ability, remain firmly on the shelves. And for every Long Gunner you can point to a Triumph or more. It doesn't need to be perfect, just better than before. |
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Oct 8, 2017 13:00:51 GMT
It seems like you agree that CID is a good thing as a principle, you just disagree about how effective it has been. Not about whether it is good or not, but whether it is good *enough*. The outliers for Cryx currently are: 1. Denny 1 (never been in CID) 2. Incorp models (Only Wraith engine was in CID). Cryx is powerful due to Denny 1's gear checks and SR2017's empowering of Incorp models. CID has been extremely successful at making bad models into playable ones. The Coven is and has always been Cryx's biggest outlier in Mark3. |
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Post by pangurban on Oct 8, 2017 14:21:03 GMT
The outliers for Cryx currently are: 1. Denny 1 (never been in CID) 2. Incorp models (Only Wraith engine was in CID). Cryx is powerful due to Denny 1's gear checks and SR2017's empowering of Incorp models. CID has been extremely successful at making bad models into playable ones. The Coven is and has always been Cryx's biggest outlier in Mark3. At the start of Mk III mostly because they were the only decent answer Cryx had to gunlines. If not for SR2017, I'd say Denny1+Ghost Fleet was still a bigger issue than the Coven. |
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Oct 8, 2017 21:48:34 GMT
The Coven is and has always been Cryx's biggest outlier in Mark3. At the start of Mk III mostly because they were the only decent answer Cryx had to gunlines. If not for SR2017, I'd say Denny1+Ghost Fleet was still a bigger issue than the Coven. Deneghra actually has weaknesses and it only really meta bending in a single list. Coven are meta bending and versatile. Cryx has 6 theme forces, and Coven is a top 3 caster in all 6 of them. Coven consistently put up better results than Deneghra1, even after the release of Ghost Fleet. Coven breaks the new focus over boosting system in a way that no other caster does making the 16/13 8 box Witches the most durable Warcasters in the game. Coven breaks SR 2017 in that they're a Warcaster who can be in 4 places at once for scoring purposes. When I'm preparing for Cryx, I can prepare for Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet no problem. It's powerful for sure, but I can prepare & practice against the two versions of the list that exist. I cannot prepare for the infinite different builds of Coven. Are they going to be Dark Host double Bane Riders, Dark Host Bane Warrior Spam, Ghost Fleet, Infernal Machines double Soulhunter, Scourge of the Broken Coast, Infernal Machines/Black Industries triple Seether, Slaughter Fleet Stalkers, or maybe they're just something else entirely. Coven does it all. How do you prepare against borderline unassassinateable scenario monsters who can run literally any build in the faction at the highest level, and how is that not the outlier? |
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Post by pangurban on Oct 8, 2017 23:07:26 GMT
At the start of Mk III mostly because they were the only decent answer Cryx had to gunlines. If not for SR2017, I'd say Denny1+Ghost Fleet was still a bigger issue than the Coven. Deneghra actually has weaknesses and it only really meta bending in a single list. Coven are meta bending and versatile. Cryx has 6 theme forces, and Coven is a top 3 caster in all 6 of them. Coven consistently put up better results than Deneghra1, even after the release of Ghost Fleet. Coven breaks the new focus over boosting system in a way that no other caster does making the 16/13 8 box Witches the most durable Warcasters in the game. Coven breaks SR 2017 in that they're a Warcaster who can be in 4 places at once for scoring purposes. When I'm preparing for Cryx, I can prepare for Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet no problem. It's powerful for sure, but I can prepare & practice against the two versions of the list that exist. I cannot prepare for the infinite different builds of Coven. Are they going to be Dark Host double Bane Riders, Dark Host Bane Warrior Spam, Ghost Fleet, Infernal Machines double Soulhunter, Scourge of the Broken Coast, Infernal Machines/Black Industries triple Seether, Slaughter Fleet Stalkers, or maybe they're just something else entirely. Coven does it all. How do you prepare against borderline unassassinateable scenario monsters who can run literally any build in the faction at the highest level, and how is that not the outlier? I was referring to Mk III day 1. The Coven got played by pretty much every competitive Cryx player simply because Cryx got shot off the table by several other factions otherwise. Not because they bended the meta, which they didn’t. No themes and no SR2017 makes a ton of difference for the Coven (and Cryx in general). |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 8, 2017 23:23:11 GMT
At the start of Mk III mostly because they were the only decent answer Cryx had to gunlines. If not for SR2017, I'd say Denny1+Ghost Fleet was still a bigger issue than the Coven. Deneghra actually has weaknesses and it only really meta bending in a single list. Coven are meta bending and versatile. Cryx has 6 theme forces, and Coven is a top 3 caster in all 6 of them. Coven consistently put up better results than Deneghra1, even after the release of Ghost Fleet. Coven breaks the new focus over boosting system in a way that no other caster does making the 16/13 8 box Witches the most durable Warcasters in the game. Coven breaks SR 2017 in that they're a Warcaster who can be in 4 places at once for scoring purposes. When I'm preparing for Cryx, I can prepare for Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet no problem. It's powerful for sure, but I can prepare & practice against the two versions of the list that exist. I cannot prepare for the infinite different builds of Coven. Are they going to be Dark Host double Bane Riders, Dark Host Bane Warrior Spam, Ghost Fleet, Infernal Machines double Soulhunter, Scourge of the Broken Coast, Infernal Machines/Black Industries triple Seether, Slaughter Fleet Stalkers, or maybe they're just something else entirely. Coven does it all. How do you prepare against borderline unassassinateable scenario monsters who can run literally any build in the faction at the highest level, and how is that not the outlier? Deneghra1 and Coven are both meta bending. Denny1 Ghost fleet is an extremely rough gear check list that requires: - the ability to mass RFP, preferably at range, and/or the ability to pinpoint RFP 3 models hiding in the back of your opponent's army - the ability to deal with incorporeal - a caster that doesn't just trivially die to the Denny1 pop and drop. - the ability to deal with an infantry swarm Those aren't trivial requirements. Many factions have 1 or 2 casters that can bring all of the tools necessary, other factions arguably don't have any strong lists that can bring those tools. Add in Dark Host, or any other more 'normal' Cryx list, and suddenly your list has to do all of the same things, while also having to deal with all of the usual Cryx BS. If you rely on your second list for that, suddenly you've used your entire pairing to deal with Cryx, and STILL end up in a list-chicken scenario. Coven is a problem because it takes all of the usual cryx BS, and turns it up to 12. Ghost Fleet is a problem because it narrows your list options to an untenably slim selection of viable builds. Both of them should probably be nerfed, though Denny1 is probably closer to balanced than Coven. |
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Oct 9, 2017 2:43:11 GMT
Deneghra actually has weaknesses and it only really meta bending in a single list. Coven are meta bending and versatile. Cryx has 6 theme forces, and Coven is a top 3 caster in all 6 of them. Coven consistently put up better results than Deneghra1, even after the release of Ghost Fleet. Coven breaks the new focus over boosting system in a way that no other caster does making the 16/13 8 box Witches the most durable Warcasters in the game. Coven breaks SR 2017 in that they're a Warcaster who can be in 4 places at once for scoring purposes. When I'm preparing for Cryx, I can prepare for Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet no problem. It's powerful for sure, but I can prepare & practice against the two versions of the list that exist. I cannot prepare for the infinite different builds of Coven. Are they going to be Dark Host double Bane Riders, Dark Host Bane Warrior Spam, Ghost Fleet, Infernal Machines double Soulhunter, Scourge of the Broken Coast, Infernal Machines/Black Industries triple Seether, Slaughter Fleet Stalkers, or maybe they're just something else entirely. Coven does it all. How do you prepare against borderline unassassinateable scenario monsters who can run literally any build in the faction at the highest level, and how is that not the outlier? Deneghra1 and Coven are both meta bending. Denny1 Ghost fleet is an extremely rough gear check list that requires: - the ability to mass RFP, preferably at range, and/or the ability to pinpoint RFP 3 models hiding in the back of your opponent's army - the ability to deal with incorporeal - a caster that doesn't just trivially die to the Denny1 pop and drop. - the ability to deal with an infantry swarm Except that's an argument for Ghost Fleet being overpowered/meta bending, not Deneghra1. 3/4 of those have nothing to do with Deneghra1, and are just as problematic when Ghost Fleet is being run by Terminus, Asphyxious1, Coven, or anyone else. Deneghra1 wasn't & isn't bending the meta at all without Ghost Fleet, but the WTC stats show that Ghost Fleet can still win just fine without her. Deneghra1 currently needs Ghost Fleet, but Ghost Fleet doesn't need her. How is Deneghra1 the meta bender here? |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 9, 2017 2:56:09 GMT
Deneghra1 and Coven are both meta bending. Denny1 Ghost fleet is an extremely rough gear check list that requires: - the ability to mass RFP, preferably at range, and/or the ability to pinpoint RFP 3 models hiding in the back of your opponent's army - the ability to deal with incorporeal - a caster that doesn't just trivially die to the Denny1 pop and drop. - the ability to deal with an infantry swarm Except that's an argument for Ghost Fleet being overpowered/meta bending, not Deneghra1. 3/4 of those have nothing to do with Deneghra1, and are just as problematic when Ghost Fleet is being run by Terminus, Asphyxious1, Coven, or anyone else. Deneghra1 wasn't & isn't bending the meta at all without Ghost Fleet, but the WTC stats show that Ghost Fleet can still win just fine without her. Deneghra1 currently needs Ghost Fleet, but Ghost Fleet doesn't need her. How is Deneghra1 the meta bender here? 3/4 of those are about ghost fleet, but not each point is equally weighted. In practice it's often not about the recurring rat 4 guys it's about the +7 power swing as well as extreme control of the table granted by Denny. |
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