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Post by Azuresun on Oct 9, 2017 23:40:22 GMT
And I think this describes the problem rather well. DennyFleet isn't the only issue. Other Fleet options might even be stronger. DennyFleet however is the most skewed and oppressive. That's the essence of it for me. There's nothing wrong with a list being strong, the problem is when the counter needs to be so specialised. |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Oct 9, 2017 23:55:44 GMT
And I think this describes the problem rather well. DennyFleet isn't the only issue. Other Fleet options might even be stronger. DennyFleet however is the most skewed and oppressive. That's the essence of it for me. There's nothing wrong with a list being strong, the problem is when the counter needs to be so specialised. What I'm trying to say is you don't need a specialized counter for Deneghra1. You need a specialized counter for Ghost Fleet regardless of who's piloting it. How many nerfs did Cygnar have to get in this edition over shooting into deployment before PP finally realized the problem was the Hunter & not any of the casters or Theme Forces? I don't really want to see caster after caster getting gutted over the caster independent issues of recursion & Incorporeal. |
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Post by josephkerr on Oct 10, 2017 0:07:18 GMT
That's the essence of it for me. There's nothing wrong with a list being strong, the problem is when the counter needs to be so specialised. I don't really want to see caster after caster getting gutted over the caster independent issues of recursion & Incorporeal. PP has been commited to getting Magic Weapons and RFP into the meta, with Armory and the near universal option of AnH, as well as Blindwater CID options Longchops and the exploration of changing Guidance to "Friendly Model" instead of faction. Denny1 and Coven will remain powerful leading most cryx themes and, worse, will probably remain top 3 options in most themes. |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Oct 10, 2017 0:31:55 GMT
Except unlike Coven who is legitimately a top 3 caster in every theme force, Deneghra1 isn't a top 3 option in most themes. She's a top 3 option in 1 theme at the moment. The only Deneghra1 list at the WTC that wasn't in Ghost Fleet was out of theme. Deneghra1 is not a top 3 Dark Host caster, she's not a top 3 Infernal Machines caster, and she 100% won't be a top 3 Black Industries caster. The only themes where Deneghra1 is a top 3 caster are Ghost Fleet & Scourge of the Broken Coast. Maybe she'll be top 3 at running Slaughter Fleet when it gets its future releases, but as they are currently, she's not in the top 3 there either.
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marke
Junior Strategist
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WTC Stats
Oct 10, 2017 2:59:50 GMT
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Post by marke on Oct 10, 2017 2:59:50 GMT
I play Denny1 with a janky Infernal Machines list. She really isn't that strong of a caster outside her feat, which occasionally just flat out wins games(scenario).
I don't know where the discussion is going anyway, since few people seem to somehow miss that the "Cryx problem" is caused by multiple issues.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 10, 2017 5:17:52 GMT
Except unlike Coven who is legitimately a top 3 caster in every theme force, Deneghra1 isn't a top 3 option in most themes. She's a top 3 option in 1 theme at the moment. The only Deneghra1 list at the WTC that wasn't in Ghost Fleet was out of theme. Deneghra1 is not a top 3 Dark Host caster, she's not a top 3 Infernal Machines caster, and she 100% won't be a top 3 Black Industries caster. The only themes where Deneghra1 is a top 3 caster are Ghost Fleet & Scourge of the Broken Coast. Maybe she'll be top 3 at running Slaughter Fleet when it gets its future releases, but as they are currently, she's not in the top 3 there either. Being broken in only 1 theme doesn't make you not broken. Both the theme and Denny could probably use a touch up. But I think denny needs it moreso. |
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Post by celeb on Oct 10, 2017 5:23:29 GMT
I don't really want to see caster after caster getting gutted over the caster independent issues of recursion & Incorporeal. PP has been commited to getting Magic Weapons and RFP into the meta, with Armory and the near universal option of AnH, as well as Blindwater CID options Longchops and the exploration of changing Guidance to "Friendly Model" instead of faction. Denny1 and Coven will remain powerful leading most cryx themes and, worse, will probably remain top 3 options in most themes. The problem with Armory is that you don't have it in all scenarios and it just makes one attack magical. That is just one dead Ghost Raider (Maybe two or three) or a minor dent in the Wraith Engine. Not a solution at all. I agree that the problem with Cryx is mostly the faction. As I said, Bane Riders, Wraith Engine, Denny1, Coven and maybe Revenants all need a nerf. |
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Post by Aegis on Oct 10, 2017 5:38:43 GMT
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 10, 2017 7:14:32 GMT
PP has been commited to getting Magic Weapons and RFP into the meta, with Armory and the near universal option of AnH, as well as Blindwater CID options Longchops and the exploration of changing Guidance to "Friendly Model" instead of faction. Denny1 and Coven will remain powerful leading most cryx themes and, worse, will probably remain top 3 options in most themes. The problem with Armory is that you don't have it in all scenarios and it just makes one attack magical. That is just one dead Ghost Raider (Maybe two or three) or a minor dent in the Wraith Engine. Not a solution at all. I agree that the problem with Cryx is mostly the faction. As I said, Bane Riders, Wraith Engine, Denny1, Coven and maybe Revenants all need a nerf. You don't need to kill the Ghost Raiders, just kill Blackbane and kill the Ghost Raiders when those MAT 6 POW 10 models become corporeal while failing to kill your model  I agree that the objective won't really allow you to kill the wraith engine, though in some cases you can at least two-shot it or damage it enough so you can easily kill it when it decides to commit. If the CID goes through Guidance will also be more available, which will help. Having played with and against the Wraith Engine, I agree that it's hard to kill until it commits and it probably could've done to stay with Cleave instead of Rapid Strike (though they seem to be phasing out Cleave because of RFP issues), but so is the cricket or the Storm Strider while others do loads of damage while being fairly durable. I would recommend listening to the latest episode (9) of Chasing the Dragonfather where Sascha also talks about his lists, games and possible problems in Cryx. Honestly, while it really sucks for the Norwegian team and I would be pissed too in their stead, the facts are: - The head judge was called by someone
- When he arrived, one of the two parties wasn't there
- The judge's word is law and the head judge is God, not being there doesn't make you immune to this
- He had no real choice but to declare that they forfeit, because he couldn't make a properly informed decision
- The committee did everything in their power to hear all parties and make an informed decision
- Both teams know what really happened and who "deserved" the win, actual results and standings will have been forgotten in a few months, so it doesn't really matter
I will refrain from comment on what I think about putting this discussion in the "media".
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Post by pangurban on Oct 10, 2017 7:36:18 GMT
I wouldn’t say that “the drama continues”. A complaint was made and made public. The committee responded. It’s not like doing otherwise would have been an acceptable next step. It’s a bad situation either way, with mostly just a lot of hearsay to go on, so they tried to make the best possible call under difficult circumstances. I expect this will be an end to it, other than the Norway team having to decide whether they’ll attend next year or not. |
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Post by jisidro on Oct 10, 2017 8:34:11 GMT
I wouldn’t say that “the drama continues”. A complaint was made and made public. The committee responded. It’s not like doing otherwise would have been an acceptable next step. It’s a bad situation either way, with mostly just a lot of hearsay to go on, so they tried to make the best possible call under difficult circumstances. I expect this will be an end to it, other than the Norway team having to decide whether they’ll attend next year or not. I felt the messages both the initial one on Courage of Caspia and this one were very strongly worded.
Complaints are complaints, in over 1000 games something will go wrong. I don't think hiding it will make it better. The number of stuff I've seen and read about on the WTCs is diminute and doesn't take away from the effort and the results.
Why would Norway choose not to attend because of this? It's something that happens in tournaments of all kinds, in all games with every kind of player... It happens.
What caught my attention was that the judges pay their own way? Jesus!
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cain
Junior Strategist
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Post by cain on Oct 10, 2017 8:40:36 GMT
The decision by the comitee seems weird. The game was recorded as a norwgian win and even publiced as a nowegian win on the wtc homesite (before being changed). Why would the norwegians then have to stay.
It seems like a "third party" went to the head judge to get a ruling. Seems like this was not clearly communicated to the teams. Why would the norwegieans leave if they did know about an escalation ?
The strangest part is the game in contention. Seems not to be an argument about: - French player doing something illegal - Judge at table makes a ruling - The players at the table continue with clock on and the nowegian players win.
If the headjudge had arrived after this with the norwegiens at site, it would have been impossible to rerake the game. The players had played it out. Seems strange in this situation to rule that the norwegiens get a loss for not beeing there when the head judge arrive.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 10, 2017 9:13:23 GMT
The comitee should stand by the head judge's decision his is the right call by definiton. They can take precautions in the future but at that time the final call should be the headjudges call.
The comitee should not interfere with what is stricly a tournament issue. That barrier is reeinforced by the fact that at least 1 member of the comitee played in the WTC.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 10, 2017 9:39:20 GMT
The comitee should stand by the head judge's decision his is the right call by definiton. They can take precautions in the future but at that time the final call should be the headjudges call. The comitee should not interfere with what is stricly a tournament issue. That barrier is reeinforced by the fact that at least 1 member of the comitee played in the WTC.
Yeah i can see that has some merit. But then they should have just made a short statement that the comitee stand by their head judge, and that the comitee has no practical possibilites to go into detail complaints. The head judge is the end of the road. The Comitee should not then have given a detailed reason for why the complaint is not taken into account.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 10, 2017 9:55:28 GMT
Lessons to learn:
1) Don't book a flight in the expectation of a tournament that size ending remotely on time.
2) Try and resolve the issue privately first before writing an inflammatory blog post accusing people of foul play.
I agree that Norway probably did win the round, however how Jarle went about it has left me with very little sympathy for them. From what I have heard he does sound like a 'Win at all Cost' gamer, maybe this experience will be a much needed lesson in how to conduct yourself properly.
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