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Post by dragash on Mar 15, 2017 17:38:38 GMT
I know I'm a bit late responding to this but: Except that it also completely changed which type of army you can run with it. In Mk2, it favoured Hordes. In Mk3, using it on a Horde army will either kill Skarre (especially with no healing from Necrosurgeons) or else just be pathetic. "Oh look, I've got a worse version of Vlad2's feat, and my warcaster has to stab herself just to cast it." But of course, it's not meant for infantry anymore, is it? It's meant for warjacks, colossals and stuff of that nature. Oddly enough, I don't have a colossal or a pair of wraith engines just lying around for this occasion. All I have is an infantry army led by a warcaster whose feat no longer supports infantry. So, my choice is to play a army where all traces of synergy have been carefully removed, or else spend a considerable amount of money on models I didn't want in the first place. Wow, what a great choice. Remind me to write a letter to PP, thanking them for making the game so much more fun for me.
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Post by drach42 on Mar 15, 2017 18:17:43 GMT
So I have read quite a few times in this thread alone "the models I bought got nerfed to oblivion" or "I have 30 bane knights I can no longer use." Well to those arguments I say you are probably not looking at the real problem. Let me explain.
I am a CRYX player, I have been since I started playing. I don't play what everybody else plays or thinks is strong I play what I think is strong or I like, I may have an advantage here because I am objectvely a pretty good player. My confidence keeps getting stronger because I continue to win. I generally win over 90% of my games (just started using iron grudge so this is an estimate) and have won the last 4 local Steamrollers I have attended. Those torneys were not all out of the same local meta either, they spanned from grand rapids to ann arbor (in michigan). I won the adepticon spell draft last year with terminus and revenant crew ( yes I played rev crew in mk2 and even in mk3 before the theme), it was spell draft so whatever. I ended up losing a very close game to green in the semifinals for masters as well. That is just a little about me. On to the problems.
1. Banes are not unplayable, they require skill, the same skill that other hard hitting melee infantry need. I have just about every model in the cryx collection in one or another of my lists, except satyxis raiders and witches because I don't like them or own them........To sum up this point cryx models as a whole are just fine. A few tweaks here and there could be used, but by no means are they NEEDED for us to be competitive or win games.
2. If you bought 30 bane knights because of the skarre1 list that was wrecking people in mk2 I have no sympathy for you. ZERO, NONE. If you bought 30 bane warriors because of shade2 in mk2 I have no sympathy for you. ZERO, NONE. If you buy any list that becomes popular because you see it winning based off of a spam you are the problem not PP.
3. The game is well balanced right now, not perfect but well. Player skill is what should matter, not models being over powered. The nerfs that were recieved were mostly needed, not everything but mostly. The game designers have no requirements to make the models you want do what you want, they need to make a balanced cool game. They give us the system, we as players use the system to play the game to the best of our ability. If you cannot think for yourself and find yourself losing because you cannot overwhelm your opponents based off of effiecient models and overpowering feats maybe you should take a hard look at what you want from the game. I like chess, I like warmachine better because it is cooler. If my opponent is constantly beating me in chess I don't ask for the knights to get nerfed, I learn their movement capabilities and read books on chess play styles to improve myself. The same concept is applicable for warmachine.
If what you are doing isn't working, and other people are doing just fine, maybe you should do some self reflection and really look at what could be the problem. (I'm an ahole so I will say it bluntly, You are.)
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 15, 2017 18:44:41 GMT
It's pretty narcissistic to assume everyone plays the faction for the same reason as you or the same way as you. Who are you to tell a player if they bought a tournament list in Mk2 they are the problem?
Some people don't have time or skill to list build and theory craft. They don't have time to paint and barely have time to play.. There's nothing wrong with buying a tournament list. There's also nothing wrong with expecting your three hundred dollar investment to be semi usable in a new edition.
You argue those players are the problem. I contend you are as well.
It's also pretty callous to tell fellow cryx players their concerns aren't valid just because you haven't experienced them. Obviously something isn't right if a majority of the players are saying something isn't right with the faction.
But again, since that isn't affecting you it must mean they are just full of BS.
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Post by drach42 on Mar 15, 2017 20:05:31 GMT
I think that the worst "negative play experience" you can have in war-gaming is to loose in the list building phase and I feel this happens to me a lot more in MK3. Recently I played against an opponent who was playing Harkavich, Behamoth, 3 Kodiaks, 2 Juggernauts and a Destroyer. I looked across the table and realized there was nothing I could put on the table that could beat that list. The whole game was un-fun and deeply demoralizing, and I've been playing Warmachine for 5 years. Imagine how a new player would react to that. Well you are playing the faction that auto beats that list with like 30 points of models. 3x machine wraiths full blackbanes 2x pistol wraiths. He cannot win on scenario, and you can easily assasinate the caster by positioning and waiting out his top of 2 maybe bottom of 3 feat. It's pretty narcissistic to assume everyone plays the faction for the same reason as you or the same way as you. Who are you to tell a player if they bought a tournament list in Mk2 they are the problem? Some people don't have time or skill to list build and theory craft. They don't have time to paint and barely have time to play.. There's nothing wrong with buying a tournament list. There's also nothing wrong with expecting your three hundred dollar investment to be semi usable in a new edition. You argue those players are the problem. I contend you are as well. It's also pretty callous to tell fellow cryx players their concerns aren't valid just because you haven't experienced them. Obviously something isn't right if a majority of the players are saying something isn't right with the faction. But again, since that isn't affecting you it must mean they are just full of BS. Yeah I was under the assuption people are complaining about competitive success, because why would you complain about any models if you are just playing for fun. Bane knights are just as fun as they were in mk2, they are cool looking hard hitting vengancing undead warriors. What to you is "semi playable", because everything in the game as is right now is semi playable from my understanding of semi playable. Which I believe means playable in some situations. I may be the problem too, but at least I am happy about the game. Also am I to assume you feel it is fair for those people who buy spam lists for tournaments because they don't have time to list build or theory craft should have an advantage because they are willing to throw money down on models that do need tweaking, play them at an advantage against other people during that time, then get to complain when the broken list they were playing gets put back in line. Also again banes are just fine, they are a little expensive but they are fine for competition.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 15, 2017 20:10:03 GMT
You're right! I saw a Skorne player win a local Steamroller with 12 players in July. Skorne was ok! PP completely overreacted. case solved!
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Post by juicedbuddha on Mar 15, 2017 20:28:11 GMT
I have just about every model in the cryx collection in one or another of my lists, except satyxis raiders and witches because I don't like them or own them........ Oh man u gotta play witches, they are the best unit in cryx for me.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Mar 15, 2017 20:35:39 GMT
So I have read quite a few times in this thread alone "the models I bought got nerfed to oblivion" or "I have 30 bane knights I can no longer use." Well to those arguments I say you are probably not looking at the real problem. Let me explain. I am a CRYX player, I have been since I started playing. I don't play what everybody else plays or thinks is strong I play what I think is strong or I like, I may have an advantage here because I am objectvely a pretty good player. My confidence keeps getting stronger because I continue to win. I generally win over 90% of my games (just started using iron grudge so this is an estimate) and have won the last 4 local Steamrollers I have attended. Those torneys were not all out of the same local meta either, they spanned from grand rapids to ann arbor (in michigan). I won the adepticon spell draft last year with terminus and revenant crew ( yes I played rev crew in mk2 and even in mk3 before the theme), it was spell draft so whatever. I ended up losing a very close game to green in the semifinals for masters as well. That is just a little about me. On to the problems. 1. Banes are not unplayable, they require skill, the same skill that other hard hitting melee infantry need. I have just about every model in the cryx collection in one or another of my lists, except satyxis raiders and witches because I don't like them or own them........To sum up this point cryx models as a whole are just fine. A few tweaks here and there could be used, but by no means are they NEEDED for us to be competitive or win games. 2. If you bought 30 bane knights because of the skarre1 list that was wrecking people in mk2 I have no sympathy for you. ZERO, NONE. If you bought 30 bane warriors because of shade2 in mk2 I have no sympathy for you. ZERO, NONE. If you buy any list that becomes popular because you see it winning based off of a spam you are the problem not PP. 3. The game is well balanced right now, not perfect but well. Player skill is what should matter, not models being over powered. The nerfs that were recieved were mostly needed, not everything but mostly. The game designers have no requirements to make the models you want do what you want, they need to make a balanced cool game. They give us the system, we as players use the system to play the game to the best of our ability. If you cannot think for yourself and find yourself losing because you cannot overwhelm your opponents based off of effiecient models and overpowering feats maybe you should take a hard look at what you want from the game. I like chess, I like warmachine better because it is cooler. If my opponent is constantly beating me in chess I don't ask for the knights to get nerfed, I learn their movement capabilities and read books on chess play styles to improve myself. The same concept is applicable for warmachine. If what you are doing isn't working, and other people are doing just fine, maybe you should do some self reflection and really look at what could be the problem. (I'm an ahole so I will say it bluntly, You are.) Do you think khador feels disadvantaged by playing all jacks compared to a cryx player playing all infantry except for jack points? i dont think anyone is saying they want to run 30 banes with mk2 skarre1 or shade2. But in classic PP nerf mode they nerfed several things at once instead of the main issue. 30 banes with skarre1 now is not nearly the pain bringing it was. And thats just with the feat tweak.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 15, 2017 23:48:55 GMT
I think the Bane Warriors are still pretty good. It's the Bane Knights that have some overlap I'm not real fond of. I mean, I could probably use them with some degree of success. The McThralls I just hate now. They no longer serve their purpose as a unit that can swarm and hurt heavy armor and they kinda suck against infantry. They were the unit I loved most in Cryx. I could care less about the recursion of them, I just want my swarming unit with steam-powered fists back.
The jacks are mostly all better now than they were in MKI or MKII, so that's a bonus. The non-bane Cav is still pretty good.
I think what hurt the most is the soul collection getting so much more difficult and the casters losing a lot of their flavor.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 16, 2017 0:29:18 GMT
IMO, just give us the ability to collect our own infantry's souls! For the love of the Dragonfather, would it kill them to allow us to get souls from Bloodgorgers and the like?
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 16, 2017 0:32:46 GMT
I bought and played skarre dirty thirty because I could get them cheaply and wanted to try it. I brought them to the lgs and said "hey I want to run this list. It's BS. Would you be alright with me playing it?" I had shade2 theme list. Repeat: HIS THEME LIST (just in case it wasn't clear that he was supposed to spam banes) I was going to run it because I was tired of people complaining about the one or two bane units I would put down (the only infantry I owned early on because they were for sale in the used bin) I'm totally the problem. Totally. To be clear : I have "zero sympathy" for someone who wants to come into a thread that started as a literal call for help because I was tired of being so negative all the time, and then sling waac/ munchkin accusations like a butt munch. Consider this a formal warning.
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Post by darkshroud on Mar 16, 2017 1:10:58 GMT
I know I'm a bit late responding to this but: Except that it also completely changed which type of army you can run with it. In Mk2, it favoured Hordes. In Mk3, using it on a Horde army will either kill Skarre (especially with no healing from Necrosurgeons) or else just be pathetic. "Oh look, I've got a worse version of Vlad2's feat, and my warcaster has to stab herself just to cast it." But of course, it's not meant for infantry anymore, is it? It's meant for warjacks, colossals and stuff of that nature. Oddly enough, I don't have a colossal or a pair of wraith engines just lying around for this occasion. All I have is an infantry army led by a warcaster whose feat no longer supports infantry. So, my choice is to play a army where all traces of synergy have been carefully removed, or else spend a considerable amount of money on models I didn't want in the first place. Wow, what a great choice. Remind me to write a letter to PP, thanking them for making the game so much more fun for me. Keep in mind you havent seen all of mk3 yet. We still need 2 more themes and steamroller 2017. The reason you're not having fun is probably bc youre not playing with the full game.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 16, 2017 9:08:36 GMT
Keep in mind you havent seen all of mk3 yet. We still need 2 more themes and steamroller 2017. The reason you're not having fun is probably bc youre not playing with the full game. Well, to be fair, that is a problem and it's totally on PP, because if true (and many people, including me, believe that it probably is), it definitely means that PP released an unfinished game, even though they said they didn't, and decided that they wouldn't finish it until a year had passed (until everyone has their command books)! Besides that, and I risk starting to sound like a broken record, while I think themes are cool, and I understand that there is a certain need for being able to balance "sub-factions" instead of factions as a whole because the game is simply getting too big, I think it's a horrible way to balance, especially if those models are objectively pretty bad outside of theme. I realise some people play Revenants out of theme, but they are still pretty expensive for what they do and D3 is pretty disappointing. Then they get really good in theme, with beter recursion and basically 3-4 points discount per unit, it just feels cheap. I like Ghost Fleet, I like the way it plays, I don't like how restrictive it is, while some other themes get a lot of leeway and I really don't like that PP forces us into it to play the Cryx of yore. All the way through MK2 I admired PP for having such a large game that just kept growing and managed to keep it more or less balanced. I really understand that it's growing out of control and they needed to do something, but maybe themes as they are now are overshooting the mark a little. I don't intend to quit any time soon though, I still enjoy playing the game and have some faith that it will get better in the future. I think that Cryx is playable, though I do find myself at a disadvantage often, but it can be fixed by just a few tweaks here and there (I would be fine with mostly getting cheaper). But I must admit that all the doom saying about PP turning into GW does have some merit, looking at their recent track record, and that scares me a bit, I just hope that it's wrong and that PP will recover.
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Makrar
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by Makrar on Mar 16, 2017 9:52:38 GMT
I was a special snowflake for most of MK2. I almost never run Skarre1, Denny1, Lich2 and Denny2. Most of the other casters was great fun to explore and list build (and also still really powerful). I really enjoyed Mk2 Cryx with Lich3/Mortenbra/Goreshade3/Skarre2 etc.
I tried to continue like this in MK3 and its just awful. Nearly anything outside of the top choices I find unfun and frustrating to use and so many cool interactions and plays have been removed that it the whole thing feels basic to play. I kept trying but just became more salty and disillusioned so i had to take a small break to cool off.
I found my fix however in I now just play the power models/lists. I find they are roughly similar in terms of feel to the last editions 2nd tier of models so it somewhat sratches my itch even if the variety is bad compared to Mk2. I'm lucky/dumb that I have multiples of everything anyways so I can run almost any list and ill never recover even a fraction of the money I've spent so its was in my interest to make this work. However if I was faced with having to make massive purchases to convert my Mk2 Cryx collection into the Mk3 equivalent then i would of likely abandoned Cryx switched factions (Probably Mercs or Ret).
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Post by dragash on Mar 16, 2017 9:59:39 GMT
Keep in mind you havent seen all of mk3 yet. We still need 2 more themes and steamroller 2017. The reason you're not having fun is probably bc youre not playing with the full game. Even if that's true, I'm not sure it's a point in PP's favour. In any case, I'm struggling to see what a theme would actually for my army. I can't see a theme making Skarre1's feat useful for infantry again or allowing Necrosurgeons to heal her, so I'll still have the problem of needing a different warcaster or a different army. What's more, if Skarre1 does get a theme, it'll almost certainly revolve around pirates/Satyxis (meaning it won't help any of the infantry models I actually own). I mean, I suppose it's *possible* that PP will make a theme which inexplicable buffs Skarre1, Mechanathralls and Banes, but I wouldn't put money on it. And I'm certainly not going to get my hopes up. That aside, the other aspect is that I don't like themes being used to correct balance in the first place. You talked earlier about choice, but themes do the opposite - they basically confine their units/warcasters to that one specific theme, because anything else just isn't worth it. I'd much rather see weak units get a buff, so that they can be effective in multiple lists - not just a specific theme one.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 16, 2017 12:24:51 GMT
Oh I'm sure we will see Banes and McThralls in a theme some day, just probably not the same theme.
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