Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 15:05:11 GMT
Lessers can activate, but like Mechanithralls, Legion lessers are all much worse than they use to be in Mark2. The result is very few people actually play the vessel even though it's just as good as it's always been. Necrosurgeons are in a similar situation as the Vessel. While their recursion isn't fantastic, it's also not terrible, but just like spawning vessels, the models you're bringing back aren't very useful and many times aren't worth being brought back in the first place. Mechanithralls need to actually be worth playing as more than just cannon fodder if the Necrosurgeon wants to see legitimate play. In Mark2 you weren't just recurring cannon fodder, you were recurring heavy hitters.
The only reason to play Mechanitralls in Mark3 is because you really want Brute Thralls or because you need more disposable bodies and Carrion Thralls are only FA: 2.
Just offering free Necrosurgeons in a theme force isn't enough to get them on the table, you still need a reason to take them. Ghost Fleet allows me to take Free Revenant Cannon Crews. I still don't take them because even free, they're largely garbage, and I get better use out of spending my free points on Rengrave and Pistol Wraiths. Even if I can get free Surgeons from a Theme Force I would need a reason to take them over other free options, and with Mechanithralls in the state they are I'm not sure there is one.
For example if we got a Thrall Theme Force who's free options included free Necrosurgeons, Skarlocks, and 3 free Scrap Thralls why take free Surgeons over free AD for all your Mechanithrall/Bile Thrall units, or a free Skarlock for Skarre? In a thrall theme you the only corpses you're likely able to bring are the Mechanithralls themselves meaning if I'm going the recursion route I likely have an army of cannon fodder. What's my win condition? Is it Warjacks, because in that case why not just abandon the idea of recurring Mechanithralls and just screen the jacks behind Carrions and AD Thralls?
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 20, 2017 18:42:07 GMT
Yeah I really have no idea what to do with the surgeon other than the generic tough UA thing. It really serves no purpose. I don't have a problem with that though as long as the McThralls are good at swarming again. There are a lot of UAs I never use.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 20, 2017 18:50:04 GMT
How about give the unit base a Synergy effect - for every one that hits a model, everyone else gets +1 to hit and damage rolls against it.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 19:59:41 GMT
How about give the unit base a Synergy effect - for every one that hits a model, everyone else gets +1 to hit and damage rolls against it. I would definitely prefer if Mechanithralls traded Combo Strike for a version of Synergy or the Blight Wasp Hunting Pack rule. We've seen in art that Mechanithralls attack in swarms. Hunting Pack/Synergy helps to increase Mechanithrall's accuracy, as well as increasing their volume of attacks. Currently Mechanithralls hit at pow 13 on their melee attacks with 1 attack each. If they traded Combo Strike for Hunting Pack, 3 Mechanithralls on a single target might still be only hitting at pow 13, but they now get 6 pow 13s instead of 3 and are hitting at Mat 8 instead of 5. Changing Mechanithralls in this way makes it so the Thralls are extremely threatening in large numbers, but are relatively harmless on their own. This makes Mechanithralls great at hording against single targets that you can get multiple Thralls into melee with, while rewarding opponents for positioning their models in ways that only allow you to get 1-2 thralls on their priority targets making it less likely they'll be able to kill it.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 20, 2017 21:27:31 GMT
I feel like simply adding gang (bringing them to mat7 with 2xps13\1xps15 apiece) would be simpler and probably easier to balance without being totally ineffective.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 22:10:19 GMT
I feel like simply adding gang (bringing them to mat7 with 2xps13\1xps15 apiece) would be simpler and probably easier to balance without being totally ineffective. I mean it would, but that would also just be a straight buff from Mark2 Mechanithralls. Mark3 with gang: Mat 7 2x Pow 12/1x Pow 15 Mark2: Mat 5 2x Pow 11/1x Pow 15 People keep telling me that Mark2 Mechanithralls were too strong (I disagree) so I opted for the version that would require 5+ models in melee to achieve that level of power. Simply giving them gang would be the simplest fix though, but I don't see it happening.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 20, 2017 22:38:03 GMT
I dunno, their stats getting even more victim-y, the loss of ps20 under skarre (or, at the very least, easy ps20) and not being able to missile them easily would make up for it imho. But, as with everything, testing is required. What casters (beyond denny1 because she can make literally anything work) do you think thralls are close to good with currently? Those would be the casters to test the interaction with. Or, they could make gang a theme benefit to stop it from combining with dark shroud from banes\ragman, protective cloud walls from gunners+carrion thralls, ect. They did it with posse, there's no reason they couldn't do it with thralls.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 22:51:16 GMT
I dunno, their stats getting even more victim-y, the loss of ps20 under skarre (or, at the very least, easy ps20) and not being able to missile them easily would make up for it imho. But, as with everything, testing is required. What casters (beyond denny1 because she can make literally anything work) do you think thralls are close to good with currently? Those would be the casters to test the interaction with. Or, they could make gang a theme benefit to stop it from combining with dark shroud from banes\ragman, protective cloud walls from gunners+carrion thralls, ect. They did it with posse, there's no reason they couldn't do it with thralls. Terminus. Giving McThralls gang would be nuts with Terminus. Mechanithralls are the ideal unit for the big guy. Dirt cheap sac pawn targets that flood the board. Only problem is Terminus does nothing to help them offensively so you get stuck with fodder that can't actually kill much since they're stuck with Mat 5 Pow 13s. Terminus would be the nuts with a Thrall theme that gave Mechanithralls gang since your fodder swarm protecting the big guy now also gets to actually kill things.
|
|
|
Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 20, 2017 23:20:33 GMT
That's why I like Hunting Pack. It allows them to attack in mass rather than pairs.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Mar 20, 2017 23:58:57 GMT
That's why I like Hunting Pack. It allows them to attack in mass rather than pairs. I agree. Unlike Banes & Satyxis, Mechanithralls in my mind were the one Cryx unit that was always meant to be spammed. Fluff wise they are the horde unit that makes up most of Cryx's mainland military. I feel like Hunting Pack better captures their essence of being a threat in mass numbers while being more of a neusence in small groups. I feel gang is better suited for more elite units that work together in smaller coordinated bands like the Satyxis.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2017 0:01:03 GMT
We should probably move this conversation to another thread before Nyxu gets on our ass.
|
|
ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
|
Post by ware86 on Mar 21, 2017 0:29:32 GMT
this could be our "creepy card player" thread !?!
|
|
Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
|
Post by Nyxu on Mar 21, 2017 0:36:56 GMT
I mean yea that's probably a good idea because discussing mechanithralls and how to fix them is a great topic, worth its own thread. But I'm not fixing to shut you down here for it- exploring ways to better the things we don't like and identifying ways to constructively articulate our problems sounds pretty gosh darn positive.
Also I've no idea what you mean by "Creepy card player" thread, I didn't follow that one closely so I can't speak to it, but my understanding is that it was the Khador version of eSkarre is a horrible pile of crap (At which point would this be 3craps?)
|
|
ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
|
Post by ware86 on Mar 21, 2017 0:55:41 GMT
Well everything can help to stay positive. From just talking about how bad MK3 is to talk about possible changes to who knows what crazy [Pls no] we can come up with.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Mar 21, 2017 1:36:37 GMT
Pretty sure the threads are similar Nyxu, yeah. Well, with banes possibly/probably coming in the next CID, what fixes do you guys plan on suggesting? What do you expect to see? I expect atleast +1 on the cav, and could see warriors getting a point cheaper.
|
|