ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 15, 2017 12:25:17 GMT
no everything is fine, there is a opinion with reason and thought put into it. (no party pooper) Not saying i agree, but still. Yes WMh always had a dynamic Meta that is not the problem ( i would argue every TT that still receives new models and tries to be balanced has a changing meta) In MK2 you always selected your army around your caster. You never had that many auto selects for every list. Just to show some small examples of what we saw at the end of MK2 (Tournament winners with cryx at the end of MK2):
Asphyxious 3 Cankerworm Bloodgorgers (max) Bloodgorgers (max) Satyxis Blood Witches (max) Satyxis Blood Hag Satyxis Raiders (max) Satyxis Sea Witch Mechanithralls (min) Skarlock Commander Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls Gerlak Slaughterborn Satyxis Raider Captain Saxon Orrik
Asphyxious 2 Helldiver Nightwretch Bane Knights (max) Bane Knights (max) Bile Thralls (min) The Withershadow Combine Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls Mechanithralls (min) Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) Bane Lord Tartarus
Deneghra 1 Skarlock Thrall Deathripper Deathripper Mechanithralls (min) Mechanithralls (min) Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls The Withershadow Combine Press Gangers (max) Press Gangers (max) Sea Dog Crew (min) Mr. Walls Sea Dogs Rifleman Sea Dogs Rifleman Sea Dogs Rifleman Orin Midwinter Master Gunner Dougal MacNaile Lord Rockbottom First Mate Hawk
Terminus Nightwretch Bane Warriors (max) Bane Warriors (max) Bane Knights (max) Bane Knights (max) The Withershadow Combine Bane Lord Tartarus Darragh Wrathe Soul Trapper Soul Trapper
Skarre 1 Skarlock Thrall Kraken Scavenger Scavenger Aiakos Stalker Stalker Satyxis Raiders (max) Satyxis Sea Witch Necrotech Necrotech Scrap Thralls Saxon Orrik
SOOO many different models used, and now we just start with Satyxis raiders (if out of theme) and build the list around them. If you really think there is no problem, we just have to agree on disagreeing. And i tried to adopt, just had no fun. It is not like i haven't played. I played especially the first 6 months like a crazy man, it was just decreasing fast, with every Month, because well raiders and boring listbuilding + a pile of unused models.(i just can't overlook the amount of money i already have invested) It's one thing to have a unit or two that don't see play, thats ok, but not having nearly all of your models rendered useless.(and i have nearly everything in cryx at least once....)
switch is not a option. I don't want to basically give my models away for under 50% msrp (used models are flooded with all those people dropping the system) and i don't want to invest for a full army, with my trust in their ability to release a balanced game (internal balance) decreasing each month.
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ware86
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 51
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Post by ware86 on Mar 15, 2017 12:35:28 GMT
And only using only a really small selection of a factions models is a problem nearly all factions have now.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 15, 2017 13:03:27 GMT
Sadly you are correct there.
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 15, 2017 13:20:13 GMT
I don't want to basically give my models away for under 50% msrp (used models are flooded with all those people dropping the system) and i don't want to invest for a full army, with my trust in their ability to release a balanced game (internal balance) decreasing each month. This will be the only salty thing I say today, I'm turning over a new leaf. I don't think PP has the capacity as a company to manage a living system. In fact recently PP's actions seem to be that of a company looking to cut costs and maybe not in the best of financial health. A living system requires a lot of manpower and testing, both of which PP seems to be cutting down on and lacking. I also do not believe that a living system is the best idea for a miniature game where the financial investment from players can reach into the thousands. Most of us Cryx Players already have two or three hundred dollars worth of models that we can't use and can't sell because they now are terrible and no one wants them. Imagine how salty we will be when Ghost Fleet gets "nerfed" after spending 300 to build it, or raiders get nerfed after spending 120 dollars buying two units of them. Living systems work great for games where the investment is minimal or the pieces are already included. Even making the core rules living is terrible, as those changes trickle down and affect models in the game. As an example the mechanics of "Gang" change and now raiders are less useful then they were in addition to every other gang (Ghost Fleet) heavy list out there. I would love to see PP release their over-hyped grymkin faction, then put the core rules in CID. Let the players put the core rules through the system. Once core rules seem fixed, put Circle, Cygnar, Cryx into CID. Then put the next three factions, then three more, over and over until every faction has been player balanced. Once that's done go back to errata's. But for the time being every time I buy a model, I have to think Is this model worth it, do I need it and what are the odds that PP is going to *&^!@ it over at a later date.
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Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 13:22:44 GMT
Hmm I heard a diffrent story, but thats just hearsay and I can't comment on that.
But it looks more like the problem is the Field allowance. I heard it was way stricter in MK2, not sure though?
Again the comparison to MK2 for me comes just from what other players are saying, but that comparison will always suck for Cryx because from what I heard Cryx back then had its golden age. (Dare I say, Cryx was OP). Khador for example (the only one I can make) tells a diffrent storry with MK2 being Butcher3/Sorscha2 all day, every day. And know way more freedom. Not as impressive as your list though. (Btw I see not many Mechthalls in your lists).
Maybe the game fatigue will set in with me at some point, but I have sooo many unplayed casters/models ahead of me. I can't see it end soon.
But there are good models in Cryx. The only thing so far that needs multibles of are Satyx Raiders/ Revenant Crew / Stalker and some support. That should mean you are good to go. There are good Lists with the models. I understand the pain of unused models, but I am hopefull there will be a time when they will be usable again.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 15, 2017 13:47:15 GMT
Hmm I heard a diffrent story, but thats just hearsay and I can't comment on that. But it looks more like the problem is the Field allowance. I heard it was way stricter in MK2, not sure though? Again the comparison to MK2 for me comes just from what other players are saying, but that comparison will always suck for Cryx because from what I heard Cryx back then had its golden age. (Dare I say, Cryx was OP). Khador for example (the only one I can make) tells a diffrent storry with MK2 being Butcher3/Sorscha2 all day, every day. And know way more freedom. Not as impressive as your list though. (Btw I see not many Mechthalls in your lists). Maybe the game fatigue will set in with me at some point, but I have sooo many unplayed casters/models ahead of me. I can't see it end soon. But there are good models in Cryx. The only thing so far that needs multibles of are Satyx Raiders/ Revenant Crew / Stalker and some support. That should mean you are good to go. There are good Lists with the models. I understand the pain of unused models, but I am hopefull there will be a time when they will be usable again. Field Allowance was never limited on non-character warjacks and they upped the field allowance on all units/solos to the largest common denominator in tier lists, so people wouldn't have models they literally couldn't field. You are right about Cryx, not sure I would say overpowered, but I am of course biased, but they were definitely strong and I know a lot of factions struggled with them. The problem is, the way it should be, and the way they promised us it would be, is that every faction is like MK2 Cryx: with having over 80% of models playable, but the reality is that a lot of factions are more like MK2 Khador as you describe it. I realise this is incredibly salty and I'm actually making an effort to play everything in MK3 (still a work in progress), but some things are just objectively worse than others, even if they are technically playable. And I still haven't found a reason to make me want to field Mechanithralls, and I actually tried them. Most things just need a little push, and honestly, Stormlances should really be less good so the whole game wouldn't be compared to them and found lacking. Also, there are Mechanithralls in half the lists that he posted. And I totally agree that they were too good, but they suffered the same fate that most things got in MK3, namely that PP "fixed" every part of the problem instead of the core issue, making the whole pretty much useless. A few examples are - Asphyxious 2, who got basically everything changed about him
- both Excarnate and Biles getting fixed while only the interaction was really overpowered, although I agree that leaving Biles as they were was too much, but then I don't really see the need for nerfing Excarnate as well.
- Mechanithralls getting much worse as well as recursion getting taken down, a lot, while only the latter was the real issue, but everything stayed the same cost
I still believe (or at least want to believe) that PP will "fix" everything, but it's going to take a lot of effort and time, time in which they will lose more and more faith from many people. It does seem very strange, that even despite all the problems, they want to release Grymkin anyway. On the one hand it's a good test for the CID, but on the other it takes a lot of time and effort, pushing back the possible things that players are wanting for right now.
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Post by Morganstern on Mar 15, 2017 14:07:30 GMT
I am finding it hard to stay positive at the moment. to me it feels like Cryx for MK3 was written by someone who has only ever played against Cryx in as much as we have lost most of the things that made us strong ( and maybe create a negative play experience for your opponent) while not really gaining anything in return.
Since MK3 dropped I have spent nearly £200 on new models trying to expand my lists and adapt to MK3. It hasn't worked. Most things just feel lackluster and weaker than what my opponent has. I don't think that theme lists will fix this as there are flaws with the core units.
I think that the worst "negative play experience" you can have in war-gaming is to loose in the list building phase and I feel this happens to me a lot more in MK3. Recently I played against an opponent who was playing Harkavich, Behamoth, 3 Kodiaks, 2 Juggernauts and a Destroyer. I looked across the table and realized there was nothing I could put on the table that could beat that list. The whole game was un-fun and deeply demoralizing, and I've been playing Warmachine for 5 years. Imagine how a new player would react to that.
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Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 14:14:07 GMT
Field Allowance was never limited on non-character warjacks and they upped the field allowance on all units/solos to the largest common denominator in tier lists, so people wouldn't have models they literally couldn't field. You are right about Cryx, not sure I would say overpowered, but I am of course biased, but they were definitely strong and I know a lot of factions struggled with them. The problem is, the way it should be, and the way they promised us it would be, is that every faction is like MK2 Cryx: with having over 80% of models playable, but the reality is that a lot of factions are more like MK2 Khador as you describe it. I realise this is incredibly salty and I'm actually making an effort to play everything in MK3 (still a work in progress), but some things are just objectively worse than others, even if they are technically playable. And I still haven't found a reason to make me want to field Mechanithralls, and I actually tried them. Most things just need a little push, and honestly, Stormlances should really be less good so the whole game wouldn't be compared to them and found lacking. Also, there are Mechanithralls in half the lists that he posted. And I totally agree that they were too good, but they suffered the same fate that most things got in MK3, namely that PP "fixed" every part of the problem instead of the core issue, making the whole pretty much useless. A few examples are - Asphyxious 2, who got basically everything changed about him
- both Excarnate and Biles getting fixed while only the interaction was really overpowered, although I agree that leaving Biles as they were was too much, but then I don't really see the need for nerfing Excarnate as well.
- Mechanithralls getting much worse as well as recursion getting taken down, a lot, while only the latter was the real issue, but everything stayed the same cost
I still believe (or at least want to believe) that PP will "fix" everything, but it's going to take a lot of effort and time, time in which they will lose more and more faith from many people. It does seem very strange, that even despite all the problems, they want to release Grymkin anyway. On the one hand it's a good test for the CID, but on the other it takes a lot of time and effort, pushing back the possible things that players are wanting for right now. Again just heare-say, but my local group describes cryx more like Tuna-esque lvls, but thats in the past. Cryx suffers a bit in the current meta due to the strong infantry hate with Sentry-Stones and Stormlances. Thus making modells seem worse. Thats the Reason why I think Satyxs Raiders are acutally really good in the Meta while being totally ok in general. Or in comparison to Khador, they are better than any SWMI (Single Wound Melee infantry) Khador has (just because the reach melee and don't die to easily to shooting). I am not sure Stormlances are such a problem, but thats just because I don't see the nerf-train stopping if we continue to label everything OP. They deserve a nerf like Rockets or Behemoth, small tweaks. And I totally agree with you that one of the thinkgs I don't like aobut PP is the "overnerf" I rather have them make 2 small steps than 1 big one, but thats just a small side note for me. I think they know the problems now and will work on them after Grymkin and SR2017. The Problem is the long planning circle. Which coincedently is the reason we got Una2 like we saw. They have a lot of fixing to do, which was not planned, so they have to test the new stuff and improve the old. But they can't just stop with the new, because they are still a company and if they don't release Grimkin they have a huge gap in their summer sales without new products, which is just bad. I hope they will adress a few Cryx things ever cycle or at least with the SR2017 cycle. BTW I just want to say, the tone is way nicer then I expected it to be.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 15, 2017 14:29:11 GMT
Cryx suffers a bit in the current meta due to the strong infantry hate with Sentry-Stones and Stormlances. Thus making modells seem worse. Thats the Reason why I think Satyxs Raiders are acutally really good in the Meta while being totally ok in general. Or in comparison to Khador, they are better than any SWMI (Single Wound Melee infantry) Khador has (just because the reach melee and don't die to easily to shooting). I am not sure Stormlances are such a problem, but thats just because I don't see the nerf-train stopping if we continue to label everything OP. They deserve a nerf like Rockets or Behemoth, small tweaks. And I totally agree with you that one of the thinkgs I don't like aobut PP is the "overnerf" I rather have them make 2 small steps than 1 big one, but thats just a small side note for me. I think they know the problems now and will work on them after Grymkin and SR2017. The Problem is the long planning circle. Which coincedently is the reason we got Una2 like we saw. They have a lot of fixing to do, which was not planned, so they have to test the new stuff and improve the old. But they can't just stop with the new, because they are still a company and if they don't release Grimkin they have a huge gap in their summer sales without new products, which is just bad. I hope they will adress a few Cryx things ever cycle or at least with the SR2017 cycle. BTW I just want to say, the tone is way nicer then I expected it to be. I completely agree, I don't think Stormlances are completely over the top, but having Electroleap on everything, SPD 8, perma-Reach, DEF 13 and easy access to Arcane Shield, all for 20 points, makes them extremely tough to handle. They're both good against heavy targets as well as infantry. As far as I know, only they and Laddermore have leaps on their shots of the Storm knights and. Personally, I think just taking Electroleaps away from their shots, or losing Assault would be the best course to take. But as they are now, they're basically a no-brainer and they have extreme threat ranges to boot, it almost makes me want to cry when I look at Bane Riders, who cost the same. It's just that many people are a bit offended by PP simply saying they're working as intended, even though they might be working on a fix behind the curtains, and understandably so. Not only is it very opaque, which makes it hard to judge the future state of the game, but it's also a dismissive. It's also slightly frustrating to know that development cycles are so long to "fix" something, but it's also something that nobody can do anything about, they only have so much time and resources. It should smooth itself out eventually, but it's all the more sad that they released MK3 the way it was. So I can understand that people are angry. Meanwhile I intend to do my best to keep having fun and to not cry too much when I face Stormla-, I mean Cygnar
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 15, 2017 14:30:03 GMT
I am finding it hard to stay positive at the moment. to me it feels like Cryx for MK3 was written by someone who has only ever played against Cryx in as much as we have lost most of the things that made us strong ( and maybe create a negative play experience for your opponent) while not really gaining anything in return. Since MK3 dropped I have spent nearly £200 on new models trying to expand my lists and adapt to MK3. It hasn't worked. Most things just feel lackluster and weaker than what my opponent has. I don't think that theme lists will fix this as there are flaws with the core units. I think that the worst "negative play experience" you can have in war-gaming is to loose in the list building phase and I feel this happens to me a lot more in MK3. Recently I played against an opponent who was playing Harkavich, Behamoth, 3 Kodiaks, 2 Juggernauts and a Destroyer. I looked across the table and realized there was nothing I could put on the table that could beat that list. The whole game was un-fun and deeply demoralizing, and I've been playing Warmachine for 5 years. Imagine how a new player would react to that. Just a quick thing: I'd take a feedback list into that. War Room Army Cryx - armor plinking Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army Pirate Queen Skarre - WJ: +28 - Skarlock Thrall - PC: 4 - Barathrum - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 4 Ragman - PC: 4 Satyxis Raider Captain - PC: 4 Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 3 Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 3 Carrion Thralls - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 --- GENERATED : 03/15/2017 10:29:13 BUILD ID : 2037.17-02-13
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 15, 2017 14:33:55 GMT
What's the second unit of Gunslingers for? Skarre can't buff their offensive powers, so they are basically useless against heavies. I understand one unit for clouds, but not sure about the second. Is it just to have Journeymen cowering in the back?
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 15, 2017 14:35:51 GMT
Rather than Nerf storm lances perhaps they should think about *buffing* the other factions comparable models. If storm lances fit a certain niche in Cygnar perhaps they should look at that niche in other factions and buff those models to a comparable level.
Balancing a game doesn't always mean nerfing. I know this you know this, if PP did this it might help ease the salt.
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Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 14:36:42 GMT
I agree with the stormlances (and so do many Cygnar players), the shooting is too much. Talking the leaps away is fine I think. This way their other cavalary has some purpose.
Yeah but longer cirlce hopefully bring better results.
I think one of the biggest reasons why I am not upset is the fact, that I didn't witness the transition to MK3 since that seems the place where PP made the most/biggest mistakes.
Lastly, when PP says they are changing something its likely sales going to drop. Announcing the Skorne errata was a big thing. I don't think a lot of Skorne was sold in that period, so again I can understand why they wouldn't tell you what they are planing on nerving, or what they are working on.
Edit: Stormlances don't fit a niche, they cover to much, thats their problem.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 15, 2017 14:40:49 GMT
What's the second unit of Gunslingers for? Skarre can't buff their offensive powers, so they are basically useless against heavies. I understand one unit for clouds, but not sure about the second. Is it just to have Journeymen cowering in the back? If you rust a heavy, or knock it down and apply dark shroud you can plink it with six feedback shots. You're not going to kill heavies with it but you're going to give a caster a nasty headache. Night wretch is swappable for scav, Skarre for Denny (risk v reward, Skarre backlash vs Denny armor reduction)
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Post by bfdhud on Mar 15, 2017 15:12:03 GMT
I have a journeyman BWA list that has 2 gunslinger units. The goal is to put serious threat on the caster through feedback. Obv this is terrible against hordes and since it was a journeyman list some of the choices aren't the best. But I'm actually open to any criticism for this list or any ways to make it more effective against WM armies.
Cryx - Aggy
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Bane Witch Agathia - WJ: +29 - Cankerworm - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Deathjack - PC: 23 (Battlegroup Points Used: 20) - Deathripper - PC: 6 - Reaper - PC: 13 - Slayer - PC: 10
Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Soul Trapper - PC: 1 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Satyxis Raider Captain - PC: 4
Satyxis Raiders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Satyxis Raider Sea Witch - PC: 3 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Satyxis Gunslingers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
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