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Post by Trollock on Sept 11, 2017 14:10:14 GMT
I know this will never happen, but i am bored, so here we go ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) One of the things that many players find uninspiring is spam lists. The current way themes are built very much encourages this. You get awarded free stuff the more you take of battle group or infantry models in general. You very rarely see hex hunters in Oracles because not only are they not super strong, BUT if you take them, you will lose out on a free solo. Better stick with 100+ points of beasts, right? Now this can so easily be changed. If you instead said that you get a free thing for every 25 points of beasts, up to a maximum of two free things. tadaa! If you have 50 points of beasts, you get your two free things, and then you can CHOSE to add more beasts, or the infantry options available. you are not punished for doing so. Oracles in legion, Power of Dhunia in Trolls and Forges of War in Ret are all based around battle group models plus models with magic ability. All of them actively punishes you for taking the models with magic ability, so you "always" see the battle group spam, and no one plays (or buys) the guys with magic ability. The same thing goes for the themes that are infantry based. You squeeze in 60 points of infantry and then you take the minimum BG. Now you have ~15 points that you can chose what you want to do with. If you instead said that the theme gives bonuses for every 25 (not 20) points of infantry up to a maximum of 2 things, you would see more balanced lists that could have a more substantial battle group, or you could go with the full 75 points of infantry if you wished, but you would not be actively punished for going below 60 points of infantry. you only need 50. having an extra 10 points of models that could be battle group opens up for way more builds that includes huge bases etc. What do you guys think? Too obvious?
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 11, 2017 14:21:47 GMT
Maybe your proposal would actually work and I like where your head is at. It does still leave the imbalance of options available to generate points and which things are available for free. Things like Skeryth being available in Guardians for a whopping 8pts for free Morraig isn't available for free in the wild hunt is just mindbogglingly stupid.
My proposed solution to this problem is get rid of free points from themes.
At the start of MKIII a good portion of the player base though that 75pts was too low as it felt like there wasn't enough room to slip in the support that lists needed to function. Enter theme forces and TADAA suddenly there was 10 to 20 points more, usually support, that started appearing in lists. On top of that some of the theme benefits are really quite good pushing us all into the themes.
I have nothing against the theme centric focus and think that it is a very good balancing tool given the size of model selection available to each faction. So I would simply propose that the game move to 90 points standard and drop the free points from theme forces. If that makes out of theme options too attractive then make the themes required as a base rule. Suddenly all models are viable within their respective themes and list building within themes becomes more varied since you're not shackled to the free point generating options and free point selection options in construction.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 11, 2017 14:30:29 GMT
I think themes would go away if the free points were not there. Since they want us to play themes, i figured id stick with that even if i disagree with the decision. So, free points for every one (probably not the exact same number of free points but hey...) but less incentive to spam.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 11, 2017 14:35:15 GMT
That is indeed an easy and obvious fix. Since it's not already in place, I can only deduce that it's not the direction PP wants lists and the game in general to go.
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Post by gribble on Sept 11, 2017 14:41:51 GMT
A slight alternative tweak might be to make everything (not already more restricted) FA 2 in theme forces. That way you can still load up on as many points as you like to get your free stuff, but no more 4+ Marauders/Neraphs, or 3+ min units of winterguard with maxed rockets.
You'd at least get some variety that way, and it would make playing out of theme viable for some extreme edge case lists (even though PP have pretty much said they don't want people playing out of theme any more).
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Sept 11, 2017 14:45:22 GMT
What spam lists are currently popular? Is all BG considered spam or 60 pts of units? I don't think so.
The only spam list I can think of that is prominent is Marauders w/ Karchev and Hark, and Chargers for Caine3 (which I think is starting to fade due to scenario weakness). You could consider Drudge spam in Cephalyx, but I think that is the intent of their design.
I don't consider 5 griffons with Vyros2 spam, especially considering he is designed around using multiple lights to build a synergy chain. I also don't consider 3 Neraph/2 Angel to be spam. BG heavy, yes, but not spam.
You don't need the themes to balance out BG/Unit weights, that is what SR17 is doing, and I believe its fairly effective.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 11, 2017 14:54:41 GMT
I'd allow non-themes to get: - 1 free non-merc solo/ua for 20 pt of any infantry, limit of 2. - 1 free non-merc jack/beast support(repair/heal, journeyman, marshal, fury manipulation, empower, etc.) solo for 25pt of any jacks/beasts, limit of 3. Now you can actually mix things in non-themes and not get punished with lack of crucial solo/UA.
Themes would stay as they are, you exchange bonuses for limited selection, but free points aren't such big difference anymore. It makes sense to spam banes in banes theme, doesn't it? I don't want to change that.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Sept 11, 2017 14:57:58 GMT
I'd allow non-themes to get: - 1 free non-merc solo/ua for 20 pt of any infantry, limit of 2. - 1 free non-merc jack/beast support(repair/heal, journeyman, marshal, fury manipulation, empower, etc.) solo for 25pt of any jacks/beasts, limit of 3. Now you can actually mix things in non-themes and not get punished with lack of crucial solo/UA. Themes would stay as they are, you exchange bonuses for limited selection, but free points aren't such big difference anymore. Like it makes sense to spam banes in banes theme, doesn't it? I don't want to change that. As much as I miss putting Hellmouths and Deathstalkers and Typhon all together (or putting Hellmouths on the table at all)... this isn't the direction the game is going. There will never be an incentive to play out of theme... the cool combos you can play (i.e. Hellmouth/Deathstalker/Typhon) IS the incentive.
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Post by pangurban on Sept 11, 2017 17:54:41 GMT
... and Forges of War in Ret are all based around battle group models plus models with magic ability. All of them actively punishes you for taking the models with magic ability, so you "always" see the battle group spam, and no one plays (or buys) the guys with magic ability... Rahn says hi. Forges' problem isn't that it punishes you for taking units, it's that it restricts the ones you can choose from to an enormous extent. If I could play Sentinels, Halbs or even Ryssovas in Forges, I would. Not with Rahn, but with just about everyone else including Vyros (and Rahn does bring Battle Mages). I'll gladly give up a solo or two for the additional functionality.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 12, 2017 1:56:40 GMT
And of course, no point levels other than 75 exist...
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Post by Trollock on Sept 12, 2017 7:33:37 GMT
And of course, no point levels other than 75 exist... not really, no. All competitive play is done on a 75 point level, and if you do not play competitively you should not complain about balance ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by jisidro on Sept 12, 2017 8:35:11 GMT
I'd like free points instead of free models...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 12, 2017 8:59:49 GMT
And of course, no point levels other than 75 exist... None that I care about, or PP for that matter
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 12, 2017 9:03:12 GMT
I'd like free points instead of free models... I can't see that happening, the free slots only being for Solos and UAs is a way of making people play more diverse lists, just like the zones in Steamroller can only be scored by certain models.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 12, 2017 9:41:17 GMT
It seems too bad. Even now theme forces are unappealing unless the theme has good spammable models. And restrict already faint benefit for the subpar lists? I don't think that it is fair. If you need to aim for something, then it should be the individual models, not the theme force itself. I'd like free points instead of free models... Remember that there are many overcosted solos and CAs that are subjected for the free model, and 'free models' per some points actually gives them a chance. Unless adjust every single unappealing ones individually, change to the free points only make the situation worse.
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