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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 1, 2017 19:44:26 GMT
It has Blazers with Blur on them, as SR 17 demands a wide spread on the board they are ideal for flanking and threatening to score/ preventing scoring. Sniped thunderbolts from Gun Mages allows long ranged board control that you cannot replicate in another list Well, board control can be done also by Hurricane in any list, in Gravediggers you have Express Team with pushes, and Haley2 has many means of moving opposing pieces, so it's not that unique. Stormlances can also be used in a way similar to Blazers if needed. But what issues SoT solves? She has many drawbacks (low scenario presence, lack of ways to deal with moderate ARM, over-reliance on shooting in an environment full of shield guards and anti-shooting techs, sinergy with only a little number of casters and almost noone of our best ones, ecc...), but has it something to put on the plate to overcome all that and being considered interesting? If not better going to CID and make it clear. I would have hoped that they would focus on other factions with less functional themes before looking at SoT, but since they did put the theme on the table, this is our chance to make the theme become an option as valuable as the other 3 we have (HM, SD and GD). If we lose this chance, it will be a long time before we will have another possibility to make it work at acceptable levels. I am at a loss at this point on how to persuade people that SotT is fine, so for my own sanity I am not discussing it anymore on here or Facebook. Nothing personal against you, you are very nice, I just have CID fatigue. I am just gonna play it and not care about convincing other people
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Post by Aegis on Sept 1, 2017 20:10:06 GMT
I am at a loss at this point on how to persuade people that SotT is fine, so for my own sanity I am not discussing it anymore on here or Facebook. Nothing personal against you, you are very nice, I just have CID fatigue. I am just gonna play it and not care about convincing other people Don't worry, some times it's possible to simply agree to disagree on something. Glad that you have found a way to make it work for your needs.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 1, 2017 21:23:21 GMT
If you back to MK2 trenches didn't play because ATGM existed same as now +True sight... Trenches go up, ATGM go down and suddenly OMG buffs... Textbook power creep? With the mini feat and the theme I believe they have a role. Especially if infantry keeps appearing... The game was entirely different in mk 2, the comparison ignores a lot of context.
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Post by Havock on Sept 1, 2017 21:34:27 GMT
So the trencher jr.
Given a Snipe caster to hand out an additional +4" what do we like to put there? Hunters? A Defender? Minutemen?
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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 1, 2017 22:11:40 GMT
I don't really wish to dredge up the sons of the tempest discussion again but I do want to say that I am looking at it with keen interest for all of the Caines and Haley3. Haley3 is particularly interesting because the main thing that this theme force offers that our others don't is a high DEF skew with all the infantry being DEF 14, which in a Haley3 lists means basically everything is going to be DEF 16 unless the enemy have blessed.
Because of the theme I am also looking at trying a marshalled jack again, Bastian's damage buff stacked with 'take aim' (since the marshalled jack gains magical damage to it's ranged weapons) meaning that a cyclone reaches POW 16 gunshots, a grenadier POW 17 and both these jacks throw out multiple shots a turn. (With trencher mechanics now available to the theme the grenadier is a lot more attractive generally.) This is before the rune shots are factored in.
As for the trencher journeyman. A grenadier is the obvious choice in my mind but an avenger is also a solid option for him. Range 16" on those jacks (potentially with arcing fire) is some scary firepower. A cyclone could also be interesting since you could place that covering fire template basically anywhere on the table. The charger is probably another default starting point. Hard to argue with a 24" threat range on a pair of fully boosted POW 12s. (In a Haley2 list you could do make it 3 fully boosted shots with the same overall threat range.)
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Post by Havock on Sept 1, 2017 22:51:58 GMT
A right, the Avenger, normally too short-ranged but he brings it up to a respectable level and KD-on-hit-AoE is a nice tool to have.
Push comes to shove, it's still a solid beater as well.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 4, 2017 2:53:06 GMT
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 5, 2017 4:18:43 GMT
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Post by Aegis on Sept 5, 2017 8:14:14 GMT
Both interesting reports, that show the problems of SoT.
Let's see how PP intends to move now. If they begin to make important changes there is some hope, if instead they go on with cautious baby steps (es. just adding the Squire and calling it a day) than I think we just have to accept that SoT will never be a tournament playable theme.
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Post by bluebarren on Sept 5, 2017 14:00:16 GMT
Well if that's the case there's always new releases, or a cycle in which they'll include gunmages themselves.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 5, 2017 14:14:52 GMT
Perhaps. It'll be a year away, anyhow.
Maybe a Gun Mage caster attatchment, an artillary piece (Rune Cannon with AOE control effects), short range skirmishing gun mages (2 pistols at rng 8, no snipe).
None of it will matter if the inherent problems with the gun mages don't get fixed. And I suspect the problem is that they can't hold scenario in SR17. They are too fragile, and need too much time to kill enough infantry to be worthwhile.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Sept 5, 2017 18:04:05 GMT
The SOT theme is all about gun mages, so dynamic updates on them should be now. And the theme should be balanced against updated gun mages.
Just like trencher commandos etc got looked at in gravediggers theme.
If they dont redo gunmages now, i fear for how long it will be.
Overall I dont understand PP these days. Gun mages and B13 seems to scream being updated. They are never seen in mrk.3 and the CiD input and battlereports show the same. The tweaking they do just seems meh. Why try to make a unit that never wants to be in melee better in melee ?
I would rate the effort on the same level as the haley1 nerf. Way out of target.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 5, 2017 19:35:37 GMT
I would rate the effort on the same level as the haley1 nerf. Way out of target. Let's not trivialize the biggest failure of the dev team in PP history (at least imho). SoT is bad, but at least it doesn't require you to suicide to use your most expensive ability in an useless way...
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Sept 5, 2017 19:57:04 GMT
I would rate the effort on the same level as the haley1 nerf. Way out of target. Let's not trivialize the biggest failure of the dev team in PP history (at least imho). SoT is bad, but at least it doesn't require you to suicide to use your most expensive ability in an useless way... Haha i might be a little over the top agree ! 🙂 Just tired of massive feedback from players that gun mages/SOT has issues which seems to go nowhere. The look and feel of the gun mages was one of the things which brought me to cygnar. Hasnt' touched them since mrk.2.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Sept 6, 2017 7:51:05 GMT
So update 3 on CID.
Falk getting pathfinder seems good, and he seems overall OK. Pathfinder is what those prowl models want (looking at you B13).
The main change to the theme - going down to 15 points - seems overall meh. Shure a buff, but the main problem IMO is not too few free solos, but that the main units in the theme are kind of underperforming.
I still fail to see why i would take SOT over gravediggers in most cases.
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