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Post by Aegis on Aug 31, 2017 23:52:10 GMT
I know free points are all the rage now but you don't have to have 3 free solos. 40 points of gun mages still gives you up to 10 free points and leaves you the room for more armor cracking. The theme does also allow Merc units so you can take a unit of forgeguard, nyss, or devil dogs for extra armor cracking. The theme looks to really support our buffbot casters so you should have no problem delivering a Merc units under Murdoch. You are absolutely right, but to convince me playing 5 points (or even more, see Irregulars) behind other lists, the theme should give me something that compels me to accept that drawback. We are already talking about the weakest Cygnar theme (even after changes), being also the one that gives you less points doesn't seem a good idea to me. That said, you are still probably right. Maybe the best way to build for it is looking at 2 free solos, but then the "MEHness" of the theme becomes an even bigger issue. The list doesn't resolve any issue that other themes can't solve, has more bad matchups than other themes AND to be builded in a somewhat balanced way gives you less point than other themes. What is than the reason to play SoT over other themes?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 1, 2017 2:37:58 GMT
I'd prefer they grant solos like this:
One free available solo for every 30 points of Gun Mages One free arcane tempest solo for every 30 points of non-lightning immune warjacks with ranged weapons.
Then you either run 60 points of jacks and 30 points of gun mages, or 60 points of gun mages and 30 points of jacks. And you get 30 points of solos so long as the jacks are thematic.
Gun mages are supposed to be specialized tech pieces for an army. So why bring more than 30 points of them.
With this set up, you could take Caine3 with some actual infantry AND a good battlegroup AND some support solos.
Caine3 20* -Cyclone 13 -Cyclone 13 -Cyclone 13 -Cyclone 13 -Cyclone 13 Blazers OR ATGM 11 Blazers OR ATGM 11 Rifleman 4 Rifleman 4 Adept 0 Falk 0 Strangeways 0
And Sloan would be happy as well
Sloan 28* -Defender 16 -Defender 16 -Hunter 10 -Hunter 10 -Hunter 10 -Hunter 10 Rifleman 4 Rifleman 4 Blazers OR ATGM 11 Blazers OR ATGM 11 Adept 0 Falk 0 Strangeways 0
30 points of gun mages is about all these casters can stand. They want to have a great big battlegroup.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 1, 2017 3:18:44 GMT
Sadly, while I agree that adding warjacks to the count for free models would have been the perfect solution, they seem adamant into not wanting to.
Let's see how it goes. I have the strong doubt that with the new "design intention" Son of Tempest is doomed to be "not competitive by design", but I could always be surprised.
Let's just hope they understand that, without counting jacks (even jack marshals were excluded), the theme/models will need quite a bit more changes to hope to see play in tournaments.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 1, 2017 3:39:39 GMT
The problem is this never should have been a theme, and it will continue to be a non-starter until an armor-cracking gunmage unit comes along.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 1, 2017 5:35:39 GMT
The problem is this never should have been a theme, and it will continue to be a non-starter until an armor-cracking gunmage unit comes along. I agree. Gun Mages are rare and precious, it doesn't make any sense to make an army made only of them. They are also a toolbox, and an army of toolboxes only is doomed to not be balanced, since it lacks workhorses units (the ones who do the real work, and should be supported by gun mages). Sons of Tempest is a flawed design to begin with. Adding other elements (like warjacks) would have helped a bit, but PP seems adamant into wanting to corner the theme into a mass of gun mages only.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 1, 2017 7:00:04 GMT
How about something like this
Caine 1 - Ace - Defender - Charger
Falk (free) GMCA (free) GMCA Ragman
Max Forgeguard Max Blazers Gun Mages - UA Black 13th
Caine benefits massively from upkeeping blur and snipe, between Ace, GMCAs and Gun Mage minifeat there is a decent amount of anti stealth, with 3 shadowfires and potential flares it threatens a decent assassination, and the Black 13th, Defender and Forgeguard with Ragman bring reasonably armour cracking
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 1, 2017 8:19:50 GMT
The problem is this never should have been a theme, and it will continue to be a non-starter until an armor-cracking gunmage unit comes along. I agree. Gun Mages are rare and precious, it doesn't make any sense to make an army made only of them. They are also a toolbox, and an army of toolboxes only is doomed to not be balanced, since it lacks workhorses units (the ones who do the real work, and should be supported by gun mages). Sons of Tempest is a flawed design to begin with. Adding other elements (like warjacks) would have helped a bit, but PP seems adamant into wanting to corner the theme into a mass of gun mages only. Eh, armies can be made of elite troops, it just needs to be balanced appropriately. For their points cost, gun mages should be much better.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 1, 2017 9:30:22 GMT
The problem is that the Gun Mages are very fragile and expensive, and they still don't have the "utility" that they are supposed to have. A whole army of Arm 11 or 13 is way too weak, and def 14 does not keep them alive. I'm not even opposed to them being expensive glass cannons that don't kill high armor targets. But they have to be amazing at what they do.
You can't argue for increased survivability on everything and then complain when RAT 7, RNG 14 POW 10 isn't enough... It's circular and neverending.
If 3 shot types, true sight, jack Marshall with good abilities isn't utility I don't know what is...
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Post by Aegis on Sept 1, 2017 9:56:56 GMT
How about something like this Caine 1 - Ace - Defender - Charger Falk (free) GMCA (free) GMCA Ragman Max Forgeguard Max Blazers Gun Mages - UA Black 13th Caine benefits massively from upkeeping blur and snipe, between Ace, GMCAs and Gun Mage minifeat there is a decent amount of anti stealth, with 3 shadowfires and potential flares it threatens a decent assassination, and the Black 13th, Defender and Forgeguard with Ragman bring reasonably armour cracking I see some potential issues, but let's focus on the positives. What does this list do better than other lists? If the idea is to play it one evening to "try SoT" then sure it's fine, expecially if your opponent is also playing a casual list, but what appeal should this list (or a similar list) have to convince me that it is worth to take it as one of my 2 tournament slots? It resolves some difficult issue? Has it less bad match-ups than other lists I can make in HM, SD or GD?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 1, 2017 10:06:20 GMT
How about something like this Caine 1 - Ace - Defender - Charger Falk (free) GMCA (free) GMCA Ragman Max Forgeguard Max Blazers Gun Mages - UA Black 13th Caine benefits massively from upkeeping blur and snipe, between Ace, GMCAs and Gun Mage minifeat there is a decent amount of anti stealth, with 3 shadowfires and potential flares it threatens a decent assassination, and the Black 13th, Defender and Forgeguard with Ragman bring reasonably armour cracking I see some potential issues, but let's focus on the positives. What does this list do better than other lists? If the idea is to play it one evening to "try SoT" then sure it's fine, expecially if your opponent is also playing a casual list, but what appeal should this list (or a similar list) have to convince me that it is worth to take it as one of my 2 tournament slots? It resolves some difficult issue? Has it less bad match-ups than other lists I can make in HM, SD or GD? It has Blazers with Blur on them, as SR 17 demands a wide spread on the board they are ideal for flanking and threatening to score/ preventing scoring. Sniped thunderbolts from Gun Mages allows long ranged board control that you cannot replicate in another list
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Post by jisidro on Sept 1, 2017 10:30:35 GMT
I REALLY like Caine1, much more than Caine2. I like the feat, I like the upkeeps and although his Field Marshall seems like something Nemo should have it's cool as it changes a match-up in list building/pairing but the effect on the table is minimal.
I try building lists with him but:
- With old school Storm Lances (Before nerf) why take Caine1 if these guys do it better than him... Now perhaps he can use them since they no longer blend infantry from range. - If I try and put him with his gunmage buddies why take them? He'll be able to blend the same infantry as they do... Why overlap so much between the caster and the units.
So, Why Caine1 + Gunmages? What are you hoping to get?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 1, 2017 10:34:56 GMT
I REALLY like Caine1, much more than Caine2. I like the feat, I like the upkeeps and although his Field Marshall seems like something Nemo should have it's cool as it changes a match-up in list building/pairing but the effect on the table is minimal. I try building lists with him but: - With old school Storm Lances (Before nerf) why take Caine1 if these guys do it better than him... Now perhaps he can use them since they no longer blend infantry from range. - If I try and put him with his gunmage buddies why take them? He'll be able to blend the same infantry as they do... Why overlap so much between the caster and the units. So, Why Caine1 + Gunmages? What are you hoping to get? They enable his assassination well, they can provide board control (Gun Mages) and a wide ranging independent unit (Blazers) plus he has deadeye which makes going for those crits much more reliable
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 1, 2017 14:03:17 GMT
The problem is that the Gun Mages are very fragile and expensive, and they still don't have the "utility" that they are supposed to have. A whole army of Arm 11 or 13 is way too weak, and def 14 does not keep them alive. I'm not even opposed to them being expensive glass cannons that don't kill high armor targets. But they have to be amazing at what they do.
You can't argue for increased survivability on everything and then complain when RAT 7, RNG 14 POW 10 isn't enough... It's circular and neverending.
If 3 shot types, true sight, jack Marshall with good abilities isn't utility I don't know what is...
Gun mages are very expensive compared to Trencher Infantry. But Trenchers threaten 19" on the assault, have CRA to get better accuracy amd damage options, are far more durable, and have the utility of cloudwalls. True sight mini feat is nice, but the unit is expensive and very fragile. And Jack Marshal bonuses do not matter until jack marshalling is good. Crit Brutal hardly counts as a shot type. It's the attack you pick when you gun mages are already within 10" of a target, so they can aim, and they don't want to push the target out of range. Thunderbolt is nice, but it gets countered easily by placing models in b2b. Snipe is good. But here's the thing. Here I am supposed to take a 15 point unit of 7 dudes who cannot kill high armor, can only kill infantry at long range if they don't have cover, and can only push big things back if there isn't a model b2b behind them. All that, and a single AOE can blast have the unit off the table. What tactics are gun mages supposed to use? Please enlighten me, because I don't see utility. I see dead weight.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 1, 2017 16:12:22 GMT
If you back to MK2 trenches didn't play because ATGM existed same as now +True sight... Trenches go up, ATGM go down and suddenly OMG buffs... Textbook power creep?
With the mini feat and the theme I believe they have a role. Especially if infantry keeps appearing...
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Post by Aegis on Sept 1, 2017 18:55:46 GMT
It has Blazers with Blur on them, as SR 17 demands a wide spread on the board they are ideal for flanking and threatening to score/ preventing scoring. Sniped thunderbolts from Gun Mages allows long ranged board control that you cannot replicate in another list Well, board control can be done also by Hurricane in any list, in Gravediggers you have Express Team with pushes, and Haley2 has many means of moving opposing pieces, so it's not that unique. Stormlances can also be used in a way similar to Blazers if needed. But what issues SoT solves? She has many drawbacks (low scenario presence, lack of ways to deal with moderate ARM, over-reliance on shooting in an environment full of shield guards and anti-shooting techs, sinergy with only a little number of casters and almost noone of our best ones, ecc...), but has it something to put on the plate to overcome all that and being considered interesting? If not better going to CID and make it clear. I would have hoped that they would focus on other factions with less functional themes before looking at SoT, but since they did put the theme on the table, this is our chance to make the theme become an option as valuable as the other 3 we have (HM, SD and GD). If we lose this chance, it will be a long time before we will have another possibility to make it work at acceptable levels.
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