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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 13, 2017 16:06:43 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable. Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme. As a side note, themes cause large problems for getting new players into the game. It's already pretty daunting to start X faction, but you can usually get good advice to start with ubiquitous models / units that play well with a wide variety of casters. That all goes out of the window when themes are brought in, and those units (and in Hordes factions warbeasts as well) are now shackled to specific themes. -und_ed Why it is the main issue? Normally the restriction of theme forces are too penalize, and free models are not enough to close the gap because your restricted choices is too flawed. Even if I can have three free models(or CA), I can't use them well for all I access for are simpl inferior to the others and choose the theme force prevents to use something to fix the problem, and even three free models are not solve the problem and force me to not choose the theme. But for some theme, you can include almost all good stuffs you are used in the non-theme force list, and choose the theme force making the list simply better. However, isn't it a problem of the already good combination or models, or that specific theme force? And then you have casters that are just force multipliers. And they dint care as long as they hey to shove more bodies into the list to multiply their power. Like they don't care that they are restricted. They just want more dudes |
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517 
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Post by skormedlover87 on Aug 13, 2017 18:34:05 GMT
It's an indication of just how balanced this game is that the inclusion of 2-4 free solos/UA's/weapon crews can more than make up for very limited army composition. Everything in this game is capable of doing work. Free work is the best kind of work. While I agree that some theme/caster combinations are far more powerful than is optimal; Pp has stated that it's fine if some lists are more powerful than others. I'd say there are good chances as more themes come out/get reviewed that power levels will stabilize between factions because everyone may have a boogeyman list or 2.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 14, 2017 13:13:58 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable. Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme. As a side note, themes cause large problems for getting new players into the game. It's already pretty daunting to start X faction, but you can usually get good advice to start with ubiquitous models / units that play well with a wide variety of casters. That all goes out of the window when themes are brought in, and those units (and in Hordes factions warbeasts as well) are now shackled to specific themes. -und_ed While it may very well be true that non-themes are untenable in comparison to theme forces, that is no longer a valid concern. PP have now made it clear that theme forces are the default way of playing this game, so there is no reason why non-themes should compete with theme forces, they have no intention of the two being balanced.
On your second point PP seem to think that themes are in fact more new player friendly, as they give a new player a much smaller roster of models to choose from, and include many internal synergies that they can learn and work with, whether they are right in that assessment? I don't know.
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unded
Junior Strategist
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Post by unded on Aug 14, 2017 13:45:04 GMT
A lot of folk seem to think non-theme shouldn't be tenable.
That flies directly in the face of what Pagani stated during the last CiD. While themes are designed to be the default, they are not intended (and I hope this stays) to be the only way to play the game.
-und_ed
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 14, 2017 13:48:35 GMT
A lot of folk seem to think non-theme shouldn't be tenable. That flies directly in the face of what Pagani stated during the last CiD. While themes are designed to be the default, they are not intended (and I hope this stays) to be the only way to play the game. -und_ed For themes to be the default they have to be better than non-theme options, Otherwise they would not be the default.
You cannot have both themes be the default, and balanced with non-themes, there is cross purposes there.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 14, 2017 13:51:03 GMT
I'm really not convinced.
That's the option they seem to be going with, but it's pretty ham-fisted.
In-game advantages like apparition and starting with upkeeps (and whatever else they dream up) are plenty enticing, they don't need to beat non-theme players over the head with a 15-point-deficit shovel.
-und_ed
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 14, 2017 13:55:41 GMT
I'm really not convinced. That's the option they seem to be going with, but it's pretty ham-fisted. In-game advantages like apparition and starting with upkeeps (and whatever else they dream up) are plenty enticing, they don't need to beat non-theme players over the head with a 15-point-deficit shovel. -und_ed I did not say they were being subtle about it  I have just accepted at this point that I have to play in theme, whether I like it or not |
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 14, 2017 14:51:40 GMT
I'm really not convinced. That's the option they seem to be going with, but it's pretty ham-fisted. In-game advantages like apparition and starting with upkeeps (and whatever else they dream up) are plenty enticing, they don't need to beat non-theme players over the head with a 15-point-deficit shovel. -und_ed To prove your point. I did make a theme force with no free models for the other benefits |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 14, 2017 15:14:33 GMT
To prove your point. I did make a theme force with no free models for the other benefits That doesn't prove a point at all. I made a list thats not theme based. Does that prove the point that the game is fine with them? |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 14, 2017 15:39:08 GMT
I made a list that was Constance Blaize and 13 Sentinel Warjacks, guess she is S Tier after all
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 14, 2017 17:15:33 GMT
To prove your point. I did make a theme force with no free models for the other benefits That doesn't prove a point at all. I made a list thats not theme based. Does that prove the point that the game is fine with them? Ok then since we're being pedantic as Firetruck today "To corraborate your claim with anecrotal evidence that if more individuals presented such evidence would be statistically significant to count as data for the purposes of proving your point" |
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 14, 2017 19:47:53 GMT
Clearly it is possible, likely even, that certain combos of models exist or will appear that don't fit together in a theme package, but are so awesome together that it is worth losing a few free solos to make a non-theme list for that. As long as that is semi-likely, then themes will not be the *only* way to play.
Themes being default simply means that PP assume that as a default, people will want free solos, and will therefore aim for themes. Default. But "most people aiming for" and "nothing else is ever played" is not the same thing. We will see how it turns out.
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Post by kuririnad on Aug 15, 2017 0:09:20 GMT
The problem isn't that you are generally losing a few free solos. By points, you are generally down an entire heavy warjack/beast. Show me a list that isn't better if it is the exact same but plus one warjack...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 15, 2017 0:46:16 GMT
The problem isn't that you are generally losing a few free solos. By points, you are generally down an entire heavy warjack/beast. Show me a list that isn't better if it is the exact same but plus one warjack... But your not getting just a single warjack. Your getting some solos. The question is some solos in the same list so significantly better then mixing and matching the best the faction has to offer? |
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Post by The Huntsman on Aug 15, 2017 3:40:51 GMT
The problem isn't that you are generally losing a few free solos. By points, you are generally down an entire heavy warjack/beast. Show me a list that isn't better if it is the exact same but plus one warjack... A Khador heavy, maybe. Most factions' jacks don't come that cheap. Also the logic is off because you're already taking those jacks in order to get the free solos - or taking more in units so you don't have the same space for jacks. You can't arbitrarily equate the value of those free solo points to the value of the best thing that happens to be in your list. |
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I have just accepted at this point that I have to play in theme, whether I like it or not 
