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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 10, 2017 4:27:14 GMT
Actually 20~25 points worth model for one free model part have really no problem at all. In the most times it ends up with about two free models with 4 points(or 3~4 points worth but overcosted), and that's a fair reward for forfeit various other options.
The real problem is the overpowered models, or some odd combination that makes simply better list than the others. For example, Storm Division's own benefits are pitiful, but because it have the best unit in the game so it is one of the 'powerful' theme in the game, and Cygnar gamers are pick the theme because they can use Storm Lances as they does as well as having some free models, not because the theme has good benefit to them other than the themetic one. I don't think that Storm Division is even playable without Storm Lances; Only for Stormsmiths you better play non-theme list, and non-cavalry Storm Knight units needs for Rhupert Carvolo or they are simply dying out... and only Stormblade Infantry is usable on the most time. So you need to avoid it if you want to play either Stormsmiths or non-Storm Lances Storm Knight unit.
That's why spammable good units(or jack/beasts if the theme has good resource management support) is the real problem on some theme, and the free model part is not a problem at all. If free model per some points is only the problem and the most good benefit, then there is really no bad theme because all the theme forces are provide that, but in fact there are many bad theme forces worse than the non-theme force list.
Just get the point; The most important thing to balancing the theme is aim for the problematic models, not the theme force system itself.
Although I agreed that 1 free model per some points is a silly idea....
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 10, 2017 9:14:28 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable.
Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme.
As a side note, themes cause large problems for getting new players into the game. It's already pretty daunting to start X faction, but you can usually get good advice to start with ubiquitous models / units that play well with a wide variety of casters. That all goes out of the window when themes are brought in, and those units (and in Hordes factions warbeasts as well) are now shackled to specific themes.
-und_ed
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2017 9:30:50 GMT
Also spoiler for swans I forgot: The shotgun mage is a ricochete shotgun. So he can spray from a much farther range. Good stuff I say. I have no idea how that would work, but it sounds cool as hell! cannot wait!
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Post by Azahul on Aug 10, 2017 10:11:06 GMT
Wait, hadn't Lt Falk already been spoiled as having that? One of his shot types is a non-spray attack. If it hits, you make a spray attack with the model struck as the point of origin.
I swear they revealed this already.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 10, 2017 10:47:11 GMT
Wait, hadn't Lt Falk already been spoiled as having that? One of his shot types is a non-spray attack. If it hits, you make a spray attack with the model struck as the point of origin. I swear they revealed this already. Where? I didn't see his shot types described.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 10, 2017 11:51:49 GMT
On the topic of themes. Like my suggested rule could require 3+ unique units but w/e. My biggest problem with themes is that they are mostly not really that themy. Like i used to build lists that would be all the Exemplar and they still had mercs and i felt that they thematically made sense. Like thematically why won't a theme force hire a couple of mercs to get the lay of the land. Or why would any theme force not be allowed to conscript zealots in the Protectorate. Zealots are just fanatics from the local population that were given bombs. Why would the flameguard not grab a bunch of guys that think feora is hot to help out. Like theme forces were ment to stop just the best unit being in every list. Instead you just get every list is just the most bestest theme force Also i really agree with the argument that the insistence on playing theme forces hurts new players. New players will have to pick what faction to play and then will be like ok now i have to pick a sub faction and i have to look at how each theme plays and their thematic elements and i have to do this song and dance again.
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Post by mydnight on Aug 10, 2017 12:26:11 GMT
Yeah I believe he has another shot type that increases magic damage dealt to the target...I imagine this makes him the aiyana + holt of gunmages....although having said that if you could bring aiyana + holt and give the stormwall magic weapons that would be huge..Caine1 would love it too....
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 10, 2017 12:47:14 GMT
Yeah I believe he has another shot type that increases magic damage dealt to the target...I imagine this makes him the aiyana + holt of gunmages....although having said that if you could bring aiyana + holt and give the stormwall magic weapons that would be huge..Caine1 would love it too.... That sounds amazing. Caine2 would like it as well.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 10, 2017 13:40:34 GMT
Yeah I believe he has another shot type that increases magic damage dealt to the target...I imagine this makes him the aiyana + holt of gunmages....although having said that if you could bring aiyana + holt and give the stormwall magic weapons that would be huge..Caine1 would love it too.... Please stop...My body can only take so much teasing!
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Post by killermuppet on Aug 10, 2017 16:35:50 GMT
I can see free units in cases where the unit size is small. (Doom Reavers, Man-O-Wars, Arcane Gun Mages, etc) When you have large units with 10 stands or more the extra stands just really get out of hand. 20 points of trenchers get a free solo or gun team. So if I get two 10 man Trencher squads with attachments I get a free Chain Gun or Cannon Team. I have 26 or 27 stands of Infantry on the field. With a warcasters free jack points you could have another stand or two of jacks. So with and investment of 20-25 points you have about 30 stands on the field you could have a solid line of stands stretching across the table for very little points.
I can see free stands if you are creating a list with small units (Doom Reavers, Arcane Gun Mages, and such) where you have very little presence on the board. This will give these smaller units more board presence and a little more flexibility.
Just my 2cp, -Da Muppet
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 11, 2017 11:22:36 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable. Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme. The thing is....that's apparently what's wanted from PP, everyone using themes. Which would be fine, except they still haven't decided what themes are. Are they a straight +1 to armies, where you spam your best stuff and get rewarded for it? Okay, then give +1 themes to every faction, and make the benefits equal in power, because right now, it feels like a dartboard is being used to determine who gets what, where some themes can allow +10 free points over a similar theme. Are they meant to enforce thematic lists and require tough choices in list building? Cool, then get rid of the "powerful list gets better" themes, introduce caster restrictions, and never speak of the mercenary inclusion again. Pick one or the other, but stop lurching between the two.
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Post by mikethefish on Aug 12, 2017 11:59:12 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable. Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme. As a side note, themes cause large problems for getting new players into the game. It's already pretty daunting to start X faction, but you can usually get good advice to start with ubiquitous models / units that play well with a wide variety of casters. That all goes out of the window when themes are brought in, and those units (and in Hordes factions warbeasts as well) are now shackled to specific themes. -und_ed Right, so I disagree with what you just said. First of all, PP has revealed in public statements that they want Theme play to be the default setting for Warmachine players. If they want players to use Themes almost all the time, then what would be the point of giving non-Themes any advantages? It goes against their entire current game philosophy. Free points is an excellent way to incentivise players to use the themes - which of course is what PP has stated that they want to do. In short, I can see why folks might dislike PP's pro-theme game design philosophy, but the results can't really be argued with. The methodology of achieving this goal is a sound one. Second, speaking as a person who frequently mentors new WM players, the emergence of Themes has been a godsend. It gives new players a smaller pool of models to practice on while they build their armies up. They can get a competetive army quickly assembled, without being overwhelmed by the massive model selection/bloat that infects Warmachine games right now. The learning curve for Themes is far smaller, and that is extrememely helpful to newer players.
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Post by kuririnad on Aug 12, 2017 13:41:25 GMT
Do you not find it harder to recommend "universally good " purchases if they are starting in theme? It seems like most themes and even some specific casters in those themes work best with multiple of the same unit and/or jack/beast. In a different theme, those purchases are useless because you will rarely want one, let alone two or more.
I like the days when I could have to casters, overlap about half the army points, and still have two wildly different but still competitive lists.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 12, 2017 14:46:35 GMT
I like the days when I could have to casters, overlap about half the army points, and still have two wildly different but still competitive lists. Exactly. Nobody here is disputing that PP is trying to make themes the default way of playing, but that doesn't change the fact that many of us find the way they're doing it obnoxious and ham-fisted. -und_ed
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 13, 2017 7:22:23 GMT
The free points are definitely the biggest issue imo, as they are what makes playing out of theme untenable. Theme benefits should be an enticement, not a punishing stick for those fools who choose to play out of theme. As a side note, themes cause large problems for getting new players into the game. It's already pretty daunting to start X faction, but you can usually get good advice to start with ubiquitous models / units that play well with a wide variety of casters. That all goes out of the window when themes are brought in, and those units (and in Hordes factions warbeasts as well) are now shackled to specific themes. -und_ed Why it is the main issue? Normally the restriction of theme forces are too penalize, and free models are not enough to close the gap because your restricted choices is too flawed. Even if I can have three free models(or CA), I can't use them well for all I access for are simpl inferior to the others and choose the theme force prevents to use something to fix the problem, and even three free models are not solve the problem and force me to not choose the theme. But for some theme, you can include almost all good stuffs you are used in the non-theme force list, and choose the theme force making the list simply better. However, isn't it a problem of the already good combination or models, or that specific theme force?
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