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Post by sgregorbmmd on Jul 12, 2017 8:25:24 GMT
I don't care that the theme exists really, but I think Minions should get to share the wealth. Make it a dual-faction theme. I'd drop a few hundred dollars on paingivers, titans, and Skorne Warlocks if I could pair them with Rask, Sturm and Drang, or Arkadius.
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 12, 2017 12:08:29 GMT
I'm less concerned about the fluff and more concerned about what this means for every future minion release. Our solos and units already had to be balanced around being in other factions. With the change to more friendly faction buffs it wasn't a huge consideration. Then now we have this. Every future beast we get has to be balanced around being friendly faction in Skorne and friendly faction in Minions. Now they also have to be balanced around pigs and gators working together. So now every beast has to be balanced around rush, rage, primal, beast handlers, lucky shot, agonizer, krea, and anything the selection of Skorne warlocks brings to the table. So our beasts get nerfed when we can't use any of those. There's a Skorne player in our area and I'm thinking about just selling all my minion models to him.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 12, 2017 12:25:50 GMT
Ok, I've made some changes based on feedback online and in my group. How's this?
THEME FORCE: THE CHAIN GANG Restrictions: Minion Warlocks, Units, Solos, and Battle Engines Paingiver and Ascetic Warlocks, Units and Solos Mortitheurge Units and Solos non-Character warbeasts
Benefits: If the list is run as Skorne: - May take a single Minion Warbeast for each Mortitheurge solo in the army, which gains the Rent-a-Beast special rule (A warbeast with the Rent-a-beast special rule is not part of a battlegroup but can force as if they were part of one. At the beginning of the control phase they immediately leech D3 fury, +1 for each solo with Magical Ability within 3".) - A single friendly minion unit or solo gains Partisan [Skorne] for each Paingiver solo in the army - May take a free Skorne Paingiver/Mortitheurge solo for every 25 points of Minion units and Battle Engines in the army. If the list is run as Minions - A single Skorne warbeast may be taken as part of each Lesser Warlocks battlegroups (IE, one per Warlock) - A single Paingiver/Mortitheurge unit gain Partisan [Minions] for each Minion unit or battle engine - May take a free Minion solo for ever 20 points of Minion units and Battle Engines in the Army
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 12, 2017 12:50:59 GMT
I'm less concerned about the fluff and more concerned about what this means for every future minion release. Our solos and units already had to be balanced around being in other factions. With the change to more friendly faction buffs it wasn't a huge consideration. Then now we have this. Every future beast we get has to be balanced around being friendly faction in Skorne and friendly faction in Minions. Now they also have to be balanced around pigs and gators working together. So now every beast has to be balanced around rush, rage, primal, beast handlers, lucky shot, agonizer, krea, and anything the selection of Skorne warlocks brings to the table. So our beasts get nerfed when we can't use any of those. There's a Skorne player in our area and I'm thinking about just selling all my minion models to him. This is what upsets me as well. How can that be balanced? Why are they purposefully creating more complex spiderwebs of interactions to try and balance models against. I thought that was the reasoning behind making so many things "friendly faction" in the edition change. As many said on the CID thread "So if I want to play minions, I should play Skorne". But they were all told "this is unhelpful" by PP staff. But it is helpful in understanding that you are completely upending a faction worth of players. (at the very least that's how they feel)
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jul 12, 2017 12:58:15 GMT
On the other hand, this coupled with the fact that Merc and Minion theme forces were left out of the "one non-theme solo, unit, and Battle Engine" buff has me feeling like this CID is really hammering us. Will Pagani did mention at some point on the CID forums that how this turns out will determine what they will do to Merc & Minion Themes, so I think there will be some benefit for Minions eventually (and I can understand how it might be easier to construct specific scenarios once they know how the majority of factions are treated). Of course, playing Retribution and Minions these days sort of puts a dampener on my enthusiasm for potential changes. I'm OK with Skorne getting Minion Warbeasts. In fact, I think it would be interesting if more factions got access to Minion Themes. I like the idea that Minion players can branch out into another faction without buying an entirely new army. My concern, of course, is that it would end up being strictly better to play Minions in a non-Minion army, which saddens me since I like the look of both Farrow and Gatormen (then again, I'm not above putting some non-Farrow Efaarit Scouts into my shooty Thornfall lists so I suppose the cross-faction Themes are similar).
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 12, 2017 13:14:34 GMT
Whats that? Angry Skorne players is Evolving! Congratulations! Your Agry Skorne players evolved into angry Minions players!
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Post by huckebein on Jul 12, 2017 19:10:25 GMT
My suspension of disbelief is holding. Honestly I keep forgetting that the time skip is even a thing given how they haven't done much with it. It makes the fluff aspect of this slightly less irritating, at least.
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Post by gobber on Jul 12, 2017 21:56:39 GMT
I'm fine with them getting a few minion beasts, the time skip makes that logical. All seems strange given it would be the greatest leap forward in skorne history, especially considering they don't have independent sources of the beasts.
Maybe limit it to Blindwalker, Battle Boar, Gun Boar, Splatter Boar?
Allows for Xekaar/Morghoul3 arc nodes, light spam, and rerolls on the mammoth, but no open-ended access to everything in the minions lineup forever?
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Post by custardboy on Jul 12, 2017 22:34:57 GMT
Just let them take one beast. You can choose your node, rage or primal but no spamming beasts that weren't supposed to have paingivers. It also means Skorne players don't have to spend hundreds on new beasts, like Naaresh and 9 battle boars.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 12, 2017 23:35:38 GMT
That was my other suggestion, just give them access to maybe 1 beasts. The stars of the theme should be the units, not the beasts.
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Post by stokerd on Jul 13, 2017 6:20:07 GMT
I think my biggest issue with the CID theme is that, for the first time every, a Warlock can have Blindwater and Farrow warbeasts in a single battlegroup - and it isn't a Minions Warlock. That just seems ... wrong.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Jul 13, 2017 7:35:16 GMT
To be fair, Minions have already stolen from the other factions: Rage, Primal, Maximus' sword... And it's very much in Skorne's fluff to be slave masters. This is something that I wanted to see, but I am disappointed in the warlocks that the theme is limited to. I mean, Makeda1 has the only in-faction Feat that actively support Minions, yet she cannot run the Minion theme. So what if a Road Hog can get Rush and Quicken with a Pain Dial, then Jackhammer away? It's no different that Molik, and actually weaker.
I miss how much MK2 Skorne supported Minion models.
PS. War Hog + Pain Dial + Rage + Naaresh' Feat = Hilarious. Or swap Naaresh' Feat for Abuse and do it every round!
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Post by Azahul on Jul 13, 2017 9:57:57 GMT
To be fair, Minions have already stolen from the other factions: Rage, Primal, Maximus' sword... And it's very much in Skorne's fluff to be slave masters. This is something that I wanted to see, but I am disappointed in the warlocks that the theme is limited to. I mean, Makeda1 has the only in-faction Feat that actively support Minions, yet she cannot run the Minion theme. So what if a Road Hog can get Rush and Quicken with a Pain Dial, then Jackhammer away? It's no different that Molik, and actually weaker. I miss how much MK2 Skorne supported Minion models. PS. War Hog + Pain Dial + Rage + Naaresh' Feat = Hilarious. Or swap Naaresh' Feat for Abuse and do it every round! Weird justification. Trolls "stole" Primal first. The Mammoth "stole" Counterblast from... probably the Teraph originally. Acosta has two Stormblades (and incidentally, your strongest argument would have been to point to Arkadius's Gorax ). Honestly, I don't actually have a problem with Skorne getting something along these lines. Their fluff absolutely supports it. What gets my hackles up is that the CID started out with every theme force bar Mercs and Minions getting a buff, then this theme force coming out that can run Minion Warbeasts better than Minions can (with the forward-facing balance implications of needing to now balance every new Minion Warbeast against Beast Handlers). Talk about feeling left out of the party. Frankly though, my concerns would be put to rest pretty much immediately if the theme force listed every current Warbeast, rather than a blanket "all Minion Warbeasts". Similar to how Nature of the Beast originally gave free Razor Boars only for Gun Boars, War Hogs, and Road Hogs. That way future releases wouldn't need to account for the existence of the theme force, and I could at least look forward to new goodies. Now I get to look forward to new goodies knowing that they're being balanced around Naaresh's Feat and access to the Krea, Agoniser, Beast Handlers, and the plethora of other Skorne support pieces, which dulls my enthusiasm even for potential new stuff somewhat. And I would hate to be a Blindwater player. At least the Thornfall Warlocks are some of, if not the, best Warbeast Warlocks in the game. Blindwater is staring down the barrel of knowing that their battlegroups will always be better if they played another faction.
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Post by superrunes on Jul 13, 2017 10:42:57 GMT
I like this new themeforce. I have waited so long for new warlocks, and now I get 5 new ones with very interesting abilities and support.
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Post by crow on Jul 13, 2017 11:44:58 GMT
I feel like if these CID changes go through (my main factions being mercs, and minions) it may be time to go back to "that other game" for 8th edition. I wonder if PP knows that's what they're actively doing?
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