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Post by telmerand on Jun 15, 2017 18:33:40 GMT
So I've seen this a couple places, "Circle has some competitive beasts, but very few options".
I look around doing google searches, looking at Battlecollege, and the reddit. Just don't see much, so I felt if I wanted it talked about, I'd need to roll out and do that.
I suppose first it seems like, from even what I've seen devs say in like the Penny Arcade podcast and elsewhere, Circle is strike and fade (other than Wolds). Now, yes, I can see that on some of the beasts but I feel like really we are just about scenario play. THe biggest issue is I look to other factions (played and ones I don't play) and I see so *so* many options on the same frame/body. I don't see that in Circle. Skorne plays with and you can find talk of: Basilisks, Cyclops, Elephants a whole lot, and even the slow bugs have a ton of hard core supporters. Circle, I see a little support for a very few of the Wold models for a very narrow group of warlocks and for the most part everything else is Warp Wolves or bust. That's really sad to me but I'll bring the rant to the models.
Argi: Unlike the Basliks with all their options or the Cyclops that have the different defensive/ranged/brawler rolls...the Argi are all throw away models with the same roll or maybe a gimmick. I really only see anyone taking them for a ranged assassination (though our beasts range game is one of the worst across all factions) so it feels kinda foolish to me. I think the devs view all living beasts as being under primal at all times, so they are like Mat 8 and Pow 13 omg balanced against the others. Personally, I don't want to be expected or required to play Primal. When I play Menoth, I don't feel like I have to bring any particular jack to play. All three argi are the same thing, melee no reach pieces that die to a stiff breeze and expected to do a one time gimmick, and the winter argus can't even do it's gimmick with any reliability (sprays?).
Griffons: Again, all three are the same freaking thing. Reachless melee that kills infantry and then dies. Circle seems to be written from a very lazy hand, that all three griffons can be so similar. I look at Axer , Bouncer and Impaler and I see different tools. I look at Razorwing, Rotterhorn and the Scarsfell and I see the same thing. I mean Scarsfell does not even have it's gimmick anymore and they lost the only thing that made them at all interesting - being actual fliers and immune to melee for a turn. I wish that could have bee retained and changed somewhere else. Or the enemy could have been expected to turtle when seeing the charge a little bit. Now, blehh on griffons, not that that made them different beasts - still all the same. That's whats nice about the wolves, they are actually different with different roles.
Satyrs: I never see these in anyone's lists. The best thing it looks like they can do is knock back a heavy on a point and then screen the Satyr when it gets up. They are greatly hurt by the change to knockdown, that it can be shook off. That was kinda the point of them and elephants. Now, spend a focus, and you lose the beast. Better to just primal and kill the enemy heavy - and in that case, take a less pillow fisted Warpwolf. I'm just glad their point costs are low, but mountain goats without pathfinder is beyond me. I wish these guys would see some tightening up, really any beast that relied on slams needs looked at again since that has become so much weaker. In the old game, that could make your beasts very tanky, do a good hit and keep them from being counter attacked. Now, it's just a rarely used gimmick.
Wolds: Fehh, they are jacks with fury = to a jacks focus. They don't have the advantages beasts have over jacks, but they still pay the beast tax. Wold Guardian is pointless garbage, Wold Watcher is over costed (I'd probably take one at 7 - rather see it have a role and cost 8), Warden is okish though I totally understand the frustration with its animus and it's ranged attacks are usually pretty weak compared to a ranged jack. So they just seem like bad jacks propped up by a theme that gives them some bennies. (Wyrd is obviously really good now and our only real *ranged* beast)
Love to hear others thoughts on the beast issue - I mean I also feel the griffon/argi/satyr and WW compete for non-reach melee roles too much. The overlap is fierce in Circle - as it always has been with infantry clearing too.
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Post by Erythro on Jun 15, 2017 20:34:32 GMT
The way I see the various beasts "hmm for a few more pints I can get a warp wolf. " It could be the various warp wolves are all too good and need toning down. But I don't feel they are over powered; rather they are just more efficient, more reliable and more focussed than our other options
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Post by telmerand on Jun 15, 2017 20:46:10 GMT
I would not say WW are batting above average - they are good beasts though. That said, if you look at a 17-18 pt Heavy Jack, you're going to see Pow 17+ weapon and Pow 14+ guns with other effects and a a host of impressive powers like maybe 21 Arm. I suppose the worst part of 14 Dex is mitigated in Circle, with the immunity to knockdown animi, but lots of factions have Mat/Rat fixers and I can't say our buffing powers are impressive (outside B2 and some Woldwraths - Arm 23 is nice on regen).
I just feel like all the griffons and argi are pretty much filling the same role as terrible Raeks. So we have like 6 Raeks and 3 titan gladiators slamming around in this post-slam world. I mean I look at my Circle and I just feel like I have 5-6 beasts compared to everyone else's 16 or something. Druids nerfed, Tharn a joke - so much of the faction just seems broken and worthless/never taken. Yet, I never see anyone talking about the lack of options. About the 10% of good models and our potent warlocks that allow us to steal scenario over and over.
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Post by kuririnad on Jun 15, 2017 22:34:38 GMT
I disagree slightly with regard to the Arguses. I think they are not supposed to be combat lights, but rather utility lights. Much as the gorax is basically a primal-bot, I think the moonhound fills a niche as quality anti-stealth tech as well as providing a hit-fixer for our increasing amount of ranged attacks. Wild Argus I take in almost every list, again as a hit-fixer. There is nothing like taking a 19-point warpwolf and failing to kill something because you didn't primal and you miss a couple unboosted 6's to hit. Don't ask me about the winter argus - that one is anyone's guess.
I think the issue with Satyrs is that we are conditioned from warpwolves and warjacks that we should basically be able to use one of our heavies to take out an opposing heavy, and that is just not the case. We can reliably take out opposing heavies, but as always we have to be tricky about it. Also, you stated that we are mostly about scenario play - what plays more directly to scenario than tossing a contesting model out of a zone rather than fighting it head-on? And while KD can be shaken, it requires resource investment to do so. A warjack with 2 available focus who has to charge to get in range of you does wildly less damage than a warjack with 3 focus within walking distance.
I do agree with just about the rest of the community that wolds (minus Wyrd and Megalith) need to be re-examined, as well as the griffins more clearly differentiated.
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Post by telmerand on Jun 15, 2017 23:46:05 GMT
I think the issue with Satyrs is that we are conditioned from warpwolves and warjacks that we should basically be able to use one of our heavies to take out an opposing heavy, and that is just not the case. We can reliably take out opposing heavies, but as always we have to be tricky about it. Right, but like lets look at a Castigator vs a Gnarlhorn SPD 5 => SPD 5
STR 11 => STR 11
MAT 6 => MAT 6DEF 10(12) => DEX 12ARM 19 => ARM 18HP 32 => HP 26
Pow 16/16 => POW 14/14/15
COST 12 => COST 12
Now, the Castigator usually has menite players saying "it needs something". It's considered a bit "weak" or "lacking. But, for the same cost, it has ~23% more hp, 1 more ARM, +1-2 POW, access to choir (much better than primal imo), and all important... a role. The Castigator is anti infantry and has an ability that does that. That's a role you can typically bring to any table (current meta withstanding) and get some use. The Gnarlhorn as a control piece, fairly difficult with speed 5 and no added value while controlling a zone. Like, even a Teraph sees value added in the form of a range attack (not that I expect the Gnarlhorn to chuck boulders or anything). I also despise that Circle Animi are so bad. We have Primal that is potent but signs away your next turn and costs a good chunk of fury - other than that you rarely see much used and it's all equally suicidal. Argus Doppler Bark, then plan for it to die. A ton of resist knockdown and bulldoze and follow up - when Circle is not going to be playing like tanks (outside B2 - our buffing and bricking does not exist). Color coded for consideration of the beast and it's animus: Hunting Howls - Fine animus, but that's all the beast is. Animus on a stick. Earth's Blessing - Don't get how it plays to Circles strengths. They are not a zone control or tanking faction, but the lack of knockdown on Def15 is nice, granted the animi is on beasts with shit Def. Go fig.Wraithbane - Good, we need anything that gets damage up, even if its crawling around buffs.Amuck - Too bad its all chain attacks in faction :/ - only special attacks are combo strike (might as well boost) and Ravaging Winds. Irresistible Force - Just don't even get it. I can see that on Khador and Trolls, not sure why it's here. Death Shriek - Mehh gimmick, I mean maybe with Grayle if he can side step into an optimal spot or Kromac 1 in rare situations.Elusive - Actually like this one - wish we had jank like Forced Evolution Skarath rocking around with Def 16 - not requiring Earth's Blessing tax every turn.Puissance - Decent Animus, opens options, but on a beast I never see anyone take.Lightning Strike - Awesome, super sad its Self, basically the same thing as Death Shriek, really a self intended special ability with a cost.Doppler Bark - Spend 25 pts to get a WW slaughter combo? I mean it's awesome and opens up assassinations. I'd say its a good animus.Winter Coat - Wth, just stupid. Unlike trolls, we don't have an ice them and can't use the immunity for any jank. Trash beast.Wild Growth - Does not work against reach and does not help against range with native trash Def. Costs a ton, other beasts don't have pathfinder - another holdover of another time where it would make charges fail.Arcane Suppression - On a great beast but easily side stepped and worked around (neither beast plays forward), tool box rather than combat multiplier seems to be all we get. Another animus that seems to not know how Circle plays - no up front bruisers throwing up the spell shield, these are back line shooters.Spiny Growth - Expensive, beast are not tanks to capitalize on it (favoring dodge). Makes way more sense on Legion heavies - but could be nice to maybe see those primaled beasts go out in a spray of blood. Just don't know that it's possible to primal everything AND use Spiny without like maybe 3 Gorax. I'd try exactly that with Ghetorix though. Play B2, primal charge in and have B2 spiny your 3 WW or whatever, then feat. Buncha Arm ~22 thorns beasts, but still, spiny effects feel odd on dodging regeners. Poor synergy in my mind.Undergrowth - Pretty much what Wild Growth should be. Much better coverage and enemies can still get around it with pathfinder - plus it can be used offensively. Nice, one of our few combat multipliers.Sky Fire - What electric attacks? Goat Riders? Krueger? Feels kinda like Deathshriek and Amuck, really just meant for the beast its on, and not much else. Maybe if Circle gets more lightning stuff to the level of Cygnar?Druid's Wrath - Animus I'd expect a Gargantuan to have - sadly druids and mist riders have fallen into ill favor, resulting in the animus being used rarely. As is, rather niche.In a hit and fade faction, I've no clue why so many animi are about brick and shove tactics. I'd expect a lot more Lightning Strike/Undergrowth/granting stealth effects. But then, I don't really think Circle is strike and fade - it's more like alpha-strike and sac due to primal. Circle does not trade up well either. All of which makes the animi make even less sense.
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Post by Fudly on Jun 16, 2017 4:34:46 GMT
I'm mostly happy with our warbeasts. They can't all be winners.
The winter argus, rotterhorn griffin, woldwatcher, woldguardian, and storm raptor could all use small buffs, but everything else seems playable in the right list.
A bigger problem is that some theme lists have broken primal math. Circle can't use primal to trade favorably against theme lists that reward spamming undercosted warjacks.
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 16, 2017 4:55:22 GMT
I'm mostly happy with our warbeasts. They can't all be winners. The winter argus, rotterhorn griffin, woldwatcher, woldguardian, and storm raptor could all use small buffs, but everything else seems playable in the right list. A bigger problem is that some theme lists have broken primal math. Circle can't use primal to trade favorably against theme lists that reward spamming undercosted warjacks. I feel like thats more of a our themes suck thing. I wanna spam WWs!
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Post by Fudly on Jun 16, 2017 5:59:57 GMT
I'm mostly happy with our warbeasts. They can't all be winners. The winter argus, rotterhorn griffin, woldwatcher, woldguardian, and storm raptor could all use small buffs, but everything else seems playable in the right list. A bigger problem is that some theme lists have broken primal math. Circle can't use primal to trade favorably against theme lists that reward spamming undercosted warjacks. I feel like thats more of a our themes suck thing. I wanna spam WWs! Our themes are pretty well designed. They promote underused models, provide adequate benefits, and don't completely outshine not having a theme. All of the Circle theme forces are being used in competitive lists now. I think the wilder should be able to be used in all of our themes, but that's the only change I'd make.
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Post by ispyypsi on Jun 16, 2017 7:05:44 GMT
Really? I haven't seen much news on people using much outside of the wolves one. Got any sources on that so I can expand my horizons? I really like the tharn themes. Just not the rules or point costs ha ha.
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Post by kineath on Jun 16, 2017 8:51:41 GMT
Another problem I see with Warbeasts (not just Circle ones): The lack of battlegroup wide buffs.
If I want to buff a warbeast with an upkeep and an animus I am already using 4 fury. Best to buff my most expensive beast then.
Little example: 2 ferals cost as much as 3 Gnarlhorns. If I'd want to have some big alpha, It'd cost me 4 fury to primal 2 Ferals. But it would cost me 6 fury to primal 3 Gnarlhorns. Fury is not an infinite recourse. So I prefer taking a warpwolf.
Apart from that, I still believe most warbeasts are 1-2 points too expensive (including warpwolves) for all the reasons in the posts before this one.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 16, 2017 9:56:46 GMT
Arcane supression is a horrible animus. I believe nothing will come out of CID with Arcane Supression on it. It's a dead animus.
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Post by kineath on Jun 16, 2017 12:04:55 GMT
Arcane supression is a horrible animus. I believe nothing will come out of CID with Arcane Supression on it. It's a dead animus. The problems with an animus like this, is its cost. To me it almost never seems like a good idea to cast it over boosting attacks.
Other animi that have the same problems:
Spiny growth (only worth it on the approach) Amuck (lack of *attacks in faction) Sky Fire (lack of lightning attacks) Winter Coat Wild Growth
Either the animi cost to much, or are on beasts with not enough fury to do something else and cast the animus (Stormraptor wants to boost/buy attacks for example)
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 12:54:37 GMT
I will say that outside of warpwolves, circle beasts have taken a stat penalty for having Primal. I'm also not a fan of the giffons, they really do need to be diversified.
But to say your animi are terrible is not something I can agree with. I'm constantly envious of the animi Circle has access to on good utility pieces and powerful heavies. I would love to have things like earth's blessing, doppler bark, and either way to generate rough terrain out of nothing.
"grass is always greener"
Skorne is right now in the best place when it comes to beasts, animi, and cost. Minnions as well. So we've just got to deal with what we've been given unless CID gets a beast theme for your faction.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 16, 2017 13:56:16 GMT
Wild Growth I feel is fine, you get concealment and block LOS behind you and get some immunities. Because it's not a combat animus I feel 2cost is perhaps too much... The Warden is the only only reason you don't see it more...
Spiny Growth was lauded as a buff to Ghetorix, I feel it's not. As usual the biggest issue is you cannot run and use it and because he doesn't have Pathfinder it's very common that you can't trample + cast it (for 3 fury).
Sky Fire is a joke. Winter Coat is combo-ish... a dead animus on a dead beast. Amuck is fine, not very usuble but people would use it if it was on the Scarsfell... As if it, it's one of the few animus you can cast on other stuff.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 16, 2017 14:16:18 GMT
Amuck is funny on the Rip Horn for his chain attack throw/headbutt. But hardly worth the investment.
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