|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 30, 2017 20:32:53 GMT
I think I got it:
The Tank Doesn't Click with me, and neither does it being pulled by living beings...
So maybe instead Il have it be a LITERAL Train. Either Removing the front and adding a "Pull" system or moving it to the front and adding a cart of Coal to the back.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 30, 2017 21:48:27 GMT
I always viewed it as chariotsves that chariots were known to do. You turn just before impacting the enemy, which would drift the carriage into the enemy while the horses would be relatively safe on the inside of the turn. Or you simply don't stop and keep going, which is why you can charge, impact a bunch of dudes, and then finish your charge. Chariots, which is basically what this thing is, always needed to keep moving and never get bogged down in a melee. Melee chariots were meant to slam into the enemy, do a little damage, and then get away to come back for another pass. Also, remember that those horses pulling the carriage are actually quite large. They're basically Shire or Percheron sized horses, they'll easily trample any human sized targets and keep going. So what happens with the gun carriage is likely that seconds before impact the driver applies the breaks, and pulls the horses hard to one side. Which slams the carriage around in a circle, crushing the enemy, and then allows them to pull out and maintain momentum. Like drifting a race car. Or he simply doesn't slow down and keeps going. I thought the current consensus about chariots and their utility on the ancient battlefield was that they were mostly used as mobile archery platforms that allowed a flanking/skirmishing element. While some other armies used them as shock troops as you point out the physics are particularly wrong for trying to use them, for example, to break down the Greek phalanxes. I get from a "faction theme" standpoint they want the Fun Carriage to be brought into the fray. From a "Slavic" perspective, though, it ignores the innovation in Eastern Europe of having horse drawn gun Carriages that provided highly mobile light artillery to the battlefield which had the added benefit of bringing its own cover. It depends on the type of chariot. Most chariots were the lightweight archery platforms. But there were some heavy chariots which would have been used as shock cavalry. As you say, no good vs a phalanx. But fine vs skirmishers or troops not armed with spears. It does somewhat abandon how actual gun carriages were used, just being mobile artillery and not some sort of tank like monster. Its also worth noting that when chariots were used as weapons of war, that horses were not yet super large. The horses peoples of the middle east were using were almost not even big enough to ride. Horses had to be selectively bred for size before they got huge.
|
|
wiking
Light Addition
Smoke me a slipper I will be back for breakfast
Posts: 67
|
Post by wiking on May 31, 2017 10:47:05 GMT
I think the problem is you imagine a gun carriage as attacking like an early Egyptian missile chariot where the horses lacked the size for impact attacks. You want the dramatic feel of Seleucid and Macedonian 4 horse scythed chariots imposed with the presence of an Indian war elephant with armoured chainmail barding a mahout and tower system as a firing system for guns. I suggest you go for a chariot design with a Leonardo de Vinci feel with scythed cutting blades and 4 horses powering it from behind. My 1 concern is steering blind with the horses and blades snapping on impact.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 10:58:02 GMT
You could always do a conversion to add tracks instead, I have seen that sort of thing done before
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on May 31, 2017 16:42:18 GMT
True but the tracks would be ponderously slow with the technology available in the Iron Kingdom setting. And if you say magic, that's just a cop out for a model design that doesn't match its use in game. I guess my biggest beef is that the design and use as fast artillery looked appropriate with squishy horses up front and spindly wagon wheels. I guess my large suspension of disbelief doesn't stretch to the new Salt Wagon's purpose. Sorry I've discussed this on more than one occasion, but it really bothers me. I spent a year talking myself into buying the damn thing and finally had enough money put aside to get it and they change all the rules on it. It's too expensive to buy just to paint it up and sit it on a shelf.
|
|
|
Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 31, 2017 17:37:40 GMT
I guess my large suspension of disbelief Actually this made me realise it doesn't have any suspension, its just a bix sitting on axels. How does its wheels not break off an fly across the battlefield? How do the crew operate it with crushed spines and head injuries? Other engines at least have the excise of being slowish.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on May 31, 2017 19:25:00 GMT
Here is the thing. Yes, the new role for it is dumb as heck, but it should actually be fairly decent in a number of lists. It can do a lot of work for no focus investment and takes a reasonable investment of force to kill.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on May 31, 2017 20:34:56 GMT
I think the problem is you imagine a gun carriage as attacking like an early Egyptian missile chariot where the horses lacked the size for impact attacks. You want the dramatic feel of Seleucid and Macedonian 4 horse scythed chariots imposed with the presence of an Indian war elephant with armoured chainmail barding a mahout and tower system as a firing system for guns. I suggest you go for a chariot design with a Leonardo de Vinci feel with scythed cutting blades and 4 horses powering it from behind. My 1 concern is steering blind with the horses and blades snapping on impact. Somewhat. I imagine that if large war horses had been developed at the time and place chariots were used as a practical weapon of war that you would have seen very large crushing type chariots. The gun's themselves somewhat begger belief since the recoil probably wouldn't be kind to anything that the horses had to pull and fire on the move.
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 31, 2017 20:43:00 GMT
Just historical "Gun Carriages" didn't exist. You just relocated a gun, on a carriage, pulled by a horse.
Never an in a billion years would somebody also stand there at the back firing that gun.
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Jun 1, 2017 0:45:00 GMT
I think I'd rather fire the guns on a gun carriage than fire any of the guns inside a WWI tank. I don't think they even had an exhaust.
|
|
|
Post by Mr.Human on Jun 1, 2017 13:10:24 GMT
The horses are magical unicorns! Don´t tell anyone I said it!
In all "seriousness", I do agree that the carriage is just silly, so many things just "can´t work" even in a world of magic and unnatural physics. How do you stear the horses, they are deaf (from the cannons) and blind (from the armour), the thing seems to way 15 tons and TWO horses with so much armour on that they can´t possibly move are pulling it so fast it rams stuff before they get to just take a side step, the already mentioned inertia of the wagon after an impact and the wheels being so small it wouldn´t move on anything but a paved highway.
Khador should have gotten a machine like the Siege Crawler, now that is cool (granted it does not look to be particulary fast).Even a Skaven Doomwheel type thing would have worked better.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jun 1, 2017 13:14:35 GMT
Wait, you mean the horses aren't mechanikal? I thought they were robots!
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Jun 1, 2017 15:25:22 GMT
Now that would be hilarious, Khador using some skaven models and their rules!
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 2, 2017 5:30:59 GMT
I think the idea was to try to merge the "realistic historical look" of the Winter Guard with the "wall of steel" look of the jacks? Personally I'm neutral towards the aesthetics, which is fine with me as I have no interest in lugging huge-based models around for games (they're called miniatures, they're supposed to be small!). I agree that it doesn't look like it could do what the rules describe it as doing, but then the ability of all cav to rush forwards then do an instant 180 and run right back doesn't quite make sense to me - although the gc is by far the worst example. Of course Warmahordes just isn't the kind of game that limits turn angles like, say naval warfare games do.
If we're bringing up pet peeves with privateer press that break our suspension of disbelief, then I have multiple issues with how they handle firearms: just about every single one looks like it's been designed by someone who's never even held a toy gun, with stocks that would be impossible to shoulder for multiple reasons, no sights, weird bulbous protrusions around where a hammer would be that would make it impossible to aim even if they did have sights, range and power values that are all over the place and have very little relation to the size or type of the firearm, chambers that don't even line up with the barrels (I repositioned my Decimator gun barrel to try to make it actually line up a little better with the ammunition chambers), and so on.
I mean, there's more, but that's the biggest single thing. What I find a little funny is that GW is a lot better at that sort of thing even though they are UK-based, while the Americans don't seem to understand guns? Definitely not living up to the stereotypes there.
Anyway, generally speaking I personally try to mod any model that I have a problem with but that I want to use (either because of the rules or because the I like the model) to try to get it to make sense to me (I modified Alten Ashley's bizarro rifle stock to something that a human being could actually use, etc), or I figure out a useable proxy. Then I just over-ride the PP fluff with my own explanation in my personal head canon.
So what I'm saying is, I agree with everyone else who's suggested converting the model if you do want to use it. That might be why I'm so slow at adding new models to my army however...
|
|
whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
|
Post by whydak on Jun 2, 2017 9:19:03 GMT
I agree that it doesn't look like it could do what the rules describe it as doing, but then the ability of all cav to rush forwards then do an instant 180 and run right back doesn't quite make sense to me One of the reasons I don't like Lylyth3 Rushing forwards faster than light cavalery, shooting 3 times when navigating this crazy vehicle, turning 180, backing little bit and turning 180 again. And her poor past incarnation can only advance and shoot 2 times in this time xD
|
|