regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Jul 21, 2017 3:16:36 GMT
So if I can read, you ended the tournament 4-2? Not too bad!
I'm trying to figure out at what point the Skorne Battle Engine went from Derp Turtle to Murder Turtle... I mean, it's not that good. You have to damage it for it to gain tokens and be useful. To deprive your opponent of its full effectiveness, you just need to ignore it. And what faction can't one-round it anyway?
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Post by Tenzilla on Jul 21, 2017 13:26:16 GMT
The beast handlers just whip it from behind with anatomical precision to fuel it turn out e the. The last on medicates it...that derp turtle is OP as hell I had it one round 2 warhogs.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 21, 2017 18:48:31 GMT
Yeah, but it´s ugly as hell too.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 21, 2017 23:49:00 GMT
Ugly, ugly turtle. It my local area it is called the murder turtle and is considered to be noticeably above the power curve- including by the Skorne players. It has a 13" charge and would one round my road hog with Defenders Ward on average with only paingivers helping then reposition away. I can't put my caster anywhere near it as it has a boosted auto KD attack. I wanted him to commit it before he feated so I would have a chance to kill it before his feat- defensive strike at mat 8 pow 20 auto kd means you just can't with a caster or heavy. Defensively its tankier than a juggernaut. He also had the Agonizer run up behind it, though the slaughterhousers were able to stay just out of its aura.
In my local group we're waiting on someone to take Zaadesh2 or Rasheth with double turtle to a major con and then people to jump on the bandwagon like Body and Soul, Fyanna2 in Oracles, Karchev and his Mad Dogs etc.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 22, 2017 0:02:41 GMT
Oh and yeah, 4-2. A few thoughts: I was happy with my losses. Clock out while winning attrition against ghost fleet is not bad. Missing 4 attacks on the machine actually may have lost me that game as Denny could start scoring before me. I enjoyed the end of the game, we had about 8 players around the table commenting on how pigs were managing to fight out the matchup. My loss against Zaadesh2 was a bit of a dumb one. Its the same player I fought against in Bangkok and had Maximus kill Makeda though, so oh well. I still don't think Helga is a strong warlock, I didn't have any point where her feat would do anything and she kept flailing in melee, but she was so much more fun than Carver. She's still screaming for a light beater and cavalry. I think she needs to be MAT7 and her feat gain a secondary effect, +2 charge attack rolls or siege weapon or something. She always has something to do at least. Rorsh and Brine were awesome with Arkadius, they are staying in the list. If we get to take a non-theme minion later, I'm thinking about Dhalia and Skarath AND Rorsh and Brine. Thornfall Alliance theme feels eh. In 6 games I didn't get to attack with retaliatory strike. I'll keep running it because I own pigs and not other stuff but it could do with a bit of focus. Ambush on a decent unit would also be good Pendrake was meh except against Fyanna2, no great surprise there. My choice of him over Saxon was the right call though, tournaments rarely have enough terrain. Slaughterhousers were surprisingly good. Having enough infantry to take the pressure off them really helped. I still think they're overcosted but by 1 point rather than 2.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 22, 2017 7:12:04 GMT
I have to agree regarding Helga: not that great. She's kind of a supersolo without being "super".
I played 10 games with her so far, mostly against beginners (because she's all, but a negative play experience) - and still lost half the games.
Maybe she's good and I'm just bad with her. I really can't figure out her thing. I tried her as an assassination enabler: no luck with all that anti knock down stuff. I tried her as the leader of a mixed arms force: besides Defenders Ward she doesn't offer anything to such a force.
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Post by Azahul on Jul 22, 2017 13:27:58 GMT
Honestly, as much as she's basically the worst possible choice for it, I am kind of glad Helga is our Battlebox Warlock. It means when the journeyman leagues roll around or when I'm introducing someone new to the game I get to play her, which wouldn't happen very often otherwise. And she is entertaining in games that size. Since the pig battlebox is so poorly optimised, with no speed boosts or ranged presence to speak of without her own gun, it lends itself to sticking Defender's Ward on Helga, sticking her outside of the walking threat of enemy models (so they can't walk up and attempt a headbutt), and sticking everything else behind her so the opponent has to go through her to get to the rest of the list. When they pile everything in and fail to kill her, your own models get Gang Fighter on the counter-punch. It's cool and unique and feels really ballsy to do. Sadly, in any larger game there are too many threats to her around to make such a strategy viable.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 22, 2017 23:35:32 GMT
I'm hoping that when they look at minions in 2-3 years there will be a bunch of us all saying the same things of what needs sorted out. I find it pretty absurd that Arkadius and Carver were our solid warlocks in MK2 and the others struggle to find any role. In MK3, same deal. FYI I considered Midas to be a very poor caster in MK2- bone grinder spam in theme was the reason you used him.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm heading home tomorrow for a bit. I'll probably use Legion while I'm there and find out later if Taiwan will be a go!
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Post by Azahul on Jul 23, 2017 0:22:20 GMT
Midas is... interesting. He's an insane suite of hit and damage buffs plus upkeep removal, so he can basically guarantee that he can destroy anything in the game. He suffers from an inability to deliver models with no way to protect them or speed them up (I don't count Vengeance, it's an absurdly poor way to achieve greater threat ranges). The downside is that Minion models have poor defensive stats, very few options external to the Warlock to improve delivery, and only one source of a non-Warlock speed buff who can be difficult to justify now that themes are a thing and she doesn't belong. I think the new Meat Thresher improves him immensely, it's fast and benefits a lot from his abilities, but in practice it hasn't improved delivery as much as I might have hoped. Frankly, I think Midas is fine. He's a unique take on a Warlock, practically an experiment in how over the top you can stack one Warlock's ability to erase enemy models and get away with it. He just needs better models. In Mark II that was Bone Grinders, with their ability to reach out and touch enemies from 17" away. In Mark III it's now the Meat Thresher, and he's still waiting for something else to take him over the line. Maybe Valkyries will be it? Thanks for doing the reports man. Hopefully we get Taiwan
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 23, 2017 15:38:14 GMT
The downside is that Minion models have poor defensive stats, very few options external to the Warlock to improve delivery, and only one source of a non-Warlock speed buff who can be difficult to justify now that themes are a thing and she doesn't belong. Well, your post made me think about Nyss Hunters. They are speedy and offer nice DEF, though no ARM. I think I have to try them with Midas. In fact, I've never had a deeper look into Midas, my MkII based prejudice always told me that he is the Bone-Grinder-Warlock. But after reading your posting, I've got a new impression. Maybe you're right and we have to run him with the rather speedy things our faction has to offer. I think I'll give him a try the upcoming week. Some Nyss Hunters, some Rorsh and Brine, maybe even some Dhalia and Skarrath.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 24, 2017 13:20:19 GMT
Oh he loves the Nyss probably more than any caster in the game. They are our only legitimately good target for death march, they like battle lust and calamity is... well everyone likes that. Being able to take a non-theme choice I think may help him a lot in being able to take that unit. It doesn't make him GOOD though. I think he needs dark rituals or something.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 26, 2017 22:20:31 GMT
Noticing that I played a Carver list yesterday that is somewhat similar to your Helga list (Carver, 2 min Brigands+UA, 2 Slaughterhousers, Rorsh and Brine, some Beasts) I read your batreps once more. You wrote that against the Skorne list selection was easy: Helga it is. Why? Because of the kitties in the Makeda 2 list that can easily jump and kill Arkadius?
I like to hear more about your thoughts regarding list selection, because this is a real secret to me. I just don't fully understand it.
For example, I wonder why you chose Helga in the game against Legion. Is it Arkadius fragility? I think that he has a strong game into Fyanna2, therefore I would have chosen him instead.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 28, 2017 1:57:39 GMT
Arkadius brings some stuff that Makeda2 wants to fight: high damage, low durability, non reach, expensive models that can only get to 2 kitties at a time. A squishy caster. No jamming capacity. I'd need to feat to get the alpha, but it would be hard to get a good one. Him getting the alpha would hurt as my beasts just aren't that sturdy. Its not so much that she'd win the game in the long run, but she would clock me out. Zaadesh2 having countercharge, loads of damage and a dangerous feat makes it a little iffy for Arkadius. I think he'd still have the advantage but it would not be an easy game.
Helga has lots of things Makeda doesn't want to see. Free strike immunity, take down, grevious wounds, accurate, good pow shooting, different continuous effects, personal assassination run and combat ability, loads of infantry and a caster that won't die easily to ferox. Meanwhile, the Zaadesh2 list just doesn't have the infantry removal to handle her list and Muzzle can lock it down even further.
I assumed I would be fighting Fyanna2 not Lylyth3 as I had Arkadius. I could see two ways it could play out with Fyanna2 vs Arkadius. 1. Fyanna runs up into my face and feats. Well, I can't win that so would have to run away and give up on scenario for a turn. He would dominate and may well be able to take my flag too as he would threaten that far with an angelius. If the game keeps going, I won't have any disposable models to contest his flag. Basically, I'm at a scenario disadvantage. 2. He doesn't feat before my alpha. I NEED primal to kill flying beasts, so his target selection on the next turn is much easier. He kills the non-primalled beasts, leaves the ones with primal and passes turn. I frenzy. He punches things and feats. Any remaining beasts flail. He punches things more. Therefore, he doesn't need much left after my alpha to pull it back to winning on attrition. Helga can keep going each way though. She has disposable models for scenario, she can use Dash to jam things in on Fyanna's feat and she can fight back against Angels/Neraphs fairly well in the late game. Pendrake in the list is (and was) a big plus. I also wanted more games with Helga, that was actually the deciding factor.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 28, 2017 15:15:52 GMT
Thanks for the insight.
It seems to me that I only play against bad Fianna players, cause the Arkadius vs Fianna matchup I always rated to be manageable.
I like to run dude spam right now therefore your thoughts are bery interesting for me. Thanks.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Aug 12, 2017 14:05:02 GMT
I usually do 2 War Hogs and 1 Road Hog with Helga. Always have two efaarit and Alten as well. Sometimes I run an efaarit scout in somewhere to engage to trigger Gang on a beast, battle board are p+s 16 with Helga it's kinda cool. War hogs p+s22, quite cool.
So far I don't see what brigands bring to her though, without parasite, calamity, or any of those things brigands are really horrible and don't do squat. But I could be wrong and would love to see how because I love my brigands.
(I just missed three pages of comments so thought I commented end of first page...)
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