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Post by greytemplar on May 29, 2017 20:55:15 GMT
Yeah, we don't have any truly auto-include jacks, which is nice. But we have a few jacks that are on the opposite end of the spectrum. The Castigator is missing 2ish rules to bring it in line with other jacks of the same type(2 open fist jacks). The Indictor is too expensive and suffers from it's main special rule being far too niche/poorly designed. The Purifier is just a worse Dervish and lacks any real #designspace of it's own. The Avatar is a victim of the game changing around it and making it's main selling points no longer worthwhile while also remaining super expensive.
I suppose that sums up the Protectorate quite well. No auto-includes, but a lot of stuff that is sub-par.
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Post by paradox on May 29, 2017 21:48:22 GMT
But the dervish is an amazing 7pt combat light. MAT7 1" reach and side step is game winning. The reckoner is still an auto-include. I have a hard time not taking at least 1 in a list. Idrians are still boss as ever. Flamebringers arecan astounding fast cav unit. Ive brutalized people in virtually every MKIII game Ive had with them so far. Cinerators are much better, and Im looking to explore them more. KE with the CA are a whole new world of awesome. Vengers are still very good, despite bad press. Daughters are still really strong, with a slightly new flavor. Cleansers. Holy shit you guys, cleansers. These guys are good. Redeemers are a whole new awesome. Most of our characters jacks are way good and only 16pts mostly. Feora3 is the new hotness. Incite is crazy. Rez2 got a huge makeover. Way solid. Durst is still a boss. Thyra is amazing now. And now the CID vessel is crazy good.
I mean, seriously, deliverers, and to an extent bastions. That's it. Sure, the purifier is overshadowed by the dervish, but its not a bad or weak piece. I challenge anyone to find a legit Female Dog outside these two. We have really goid stuff.
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Post by dazzla on May 29, 2017 22:47:52 GMT
But the dervish is an amazing 7pt combat light. MAT7 1" reach and side step is game winning. The reckoner is still an auto-include. I have a hard time not taking at least 1 in a list. Idrians are still boss as ever. Flamebringers arecan astounding fast cav unit. Ive brutalized people in virtually every MKIII game Ive had with them so far. Cinerators are much better, and Im looking to explore them more. KE with the CA are a whole new world of awesome. Vengers are still very good, despite bad press. Daughters are still really strong, with a slightly new flavor. Cleansers. Holy shit you guys, cleansers. These guys are good. Redeemers are a whole new awesome. Most of our characters jacks are way good and only 16pts mostly. Feora3 is the new hotness. Incite is crazy. Rez2 got a huge makeover. Way solid. Durst is still a boss. Thyra is amazing now. And now the CID vessel is crazy good. I mean, seriously, deliverers, and to an extent bastions. That's it. Sure, the purifier is overshadowed by the dervish, but its not a bad or weak piece. I challenge anyone to find a legit Female Dog outside these two. We have really goid stuff. I would disagree on several points, but to just take one. IMO the reckoner is not as powerful as the cid desecrator ( obviously not confirmed yet) although the desecrator is cheaper. Pp does a great job overall and warmachine is a great game that I still enjoy very much and encourage others to play. Menoth is still fun and interesting to play. I just think Menoth needs a slight boost and I believe there is evidence of that in recent tournament results. I play other factions and have not argued they need a boost.
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Post by paradox on May 30, 2017 0:35:30 GMT
1. In what world are the reckoner and desecrator filling the same role? 2. Cross-faction comparisons are usually bad. But you should AT THE VERY LEAST try to back this up with some evidence, or at least reasoning. Otherwise it's like saying "apples arent as sweet as oranges, so apples are bad." Like, really. 3.,What tournament results, specifically? 4. Do you accept anything other than tourney results
So, like, the recokoner is a boostable POW14 gun. With Flare. And crit fire. At RNG12 on a SPR5 chassis. That's a great gun. It gets lots of work done every game, all the time. It's also strapped on a chassis with reach PS17 club, also with crit fire. And it's fire immune. With Ashen Veil. About all you can complain about is the standard MAT6 RAT5. So its focus hungry.
Honestly, the reckoner is THE FIRST jack I reach for even now. It's great at ranged. It's good in melee. It's a little focus-hungry, but Power Up and Empower, or Tristan1 means this is actually a non-issue. It's no longer clearly our best jack by a mile like in MKII. But that hardly means it's bad. It's still arguably one of our best, which is a very good place to be. If you want to convince me or anyone here, you'll have to work alot harder.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 30, 2017 1:38:22 GMT
1. In what world are the reckoner and desecrator filling the same role? 2. Cross-faction comparisons are usually bad. But you should AT THE VERY LEAST try to back this up with some evidence, or at least reasoning. Otherwise it's like saying "apples arent as sweet as oranges, so apples are bad." Like, really. 3.,What tournament results, specifically? 4. Do you accept anything other than tourney results So, like, the recokoner is a boostable POW14 gun. With Flare. And crit fire. At RNG12 on a SPR5 chassis. That's a great gun. It gets lots of work done every game, all the time. It's also strapped on a chassis with reach PS17 club, also with crit fire. And it's fire immune. With Ashen Veil. About all you can complain about is the standard MAT6 RAT5. So its focus hungry. Honestly, the reckoner is THE FIRST jack I reach for even now. It's great at ranged. It's good in melee. It's a little focus-hungry, but Power Up and Empower, or Tristan1 means this is actually a non-issue. It's no longer clearly our best jack by a mile like in MKII. But that hardly means it's bad. It's still arguably one of our best, which is a very good place to be. If you want to convince me or anyone here, you'll have to work alot harder. don't forget it's one of the fast chassis! The reckoner is an all rounder, and the only meaningful issue is the point cost that is paid for something with no meaningful weakness. 16 points of almost any other combat unit, spent elsewise and properly delivered, does a farkton more damage than the reckoner ever will. But as an all rounder with a good gun, a reach PS 17 base club, and a menoth chassis ARM/box combo, it pretty much delivers itself. Every turn. it's just not best in faction at anything it actually does.
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Post by paradox on May 30, 2017 2:53:55 GMT
Honestly, reckoner guns do more work than many other 16pts for me.
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Post by macdaddy on May 30, 2017 3:25:45 GMT
Honestly, reckoner guns do more work than many other 16pts for me. Well depends. But yes, Reckoners have a fantastic gun. I normally take the Reckoner just for the long range High pow shot. The speed and Giant club are just extra toppings. I think my favorite jack as of now is the guardian. It's a good price, has reach, Mat 7 which is awesome, and it's an arc node. I include it a lot because of its versatility and it always does work for me. Next is defanitely the Reckoner and after that I would say I really like the Crusader and Templar. I feel like if the castigator gained a Mat buff or anything extra I would love him more (chain attack???) I think honestly in faction the only jacks that need to be looked at are the castigator and the purifier (purifier should honestly just be the same cost as a dervish. Then they'd be taken) Overall if we are all honest with ourselves the faction is in a decent spot. I think the reason we aren't feeling as powerful is our themes are all meh or situationally awesome. Creators might is solid but not as powerful as other jack themes and our two infantry themes are ok but lack the cool benefits of other factions themes. We are 1 or two Khador level themes away from being amazing
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 30, 2017 5:02:13 GMT
Honestly, reckoner guns do more work than many other 16pts for me. Well depends. But yes, Reckoners have a fantastic gun. I normally take the Reckoner just for the long range High pow shot. The speed and Giant club are just extra toppings. I think my favorite jack as of now is the guardian. It's a good price, has reach, Mat 7 which is awesome, and it's an arc node. I include it a lot because of its versatility and it always does work for me. Next is defanitely the Reckoner and after that I would say I really like the Crusader and Templar. I feel like if the castigator gained a Mat buff or anything extra I would love him more (chain attack???) I think honestly in faction the only jacks that need to be looked at are the castigator and the purifier (purifier should honestly just be the same cost as a dervish. Then they'd be taken) Overall if we are all honest with ourselves the faction is in a decent spot. I think the reason we aren't feeling as powerful is our themes are all meh or situationally awesome. Creators might is solid but not as powerful as other jack themes and our two infantry themes are ok but lack the cool benefits of other factions themes. We are 1 or two Khador level themes away from being amazing I wonder how much of the Protectorate Salt Syndrome stems from a bit of "The grass is greener at the other Faction" mentality.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 30, 2017 5:10:24 GMT
I'm sure other factions feel that way about our lights. The dervish, devout, vigilant, and redeemer are hard to beat.
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Post by Mydnight on May 30, 2017 5:54:14 GMT
I'm sure other factions feel that way about our lights. The dervish, devout, vigilant, and redeemer are hard to beat. How about the hunter, sentinel, charger and the grenadier in the soon to come trencher theme list
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 30, 2017 6:02:28 GMT
How about the hunter, sentinel, charger and the grenadier in the soon to come trencher theme list The charger and firefly are the only amazing Cygnar lights imo. I like redeemers more than hunters .
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 30, 2017 6:36:10 GMT
How about the hunter, sentinel, charger and the grenadier in the soon to come trencher theme list The charger and firefly are the only amazing Cygnar lights imo. I like redeemers more than hunters . I've seen a Redeemer beat a Hunter in a 1 on 1 firefight during a battle in MKII, and aside from the choir nerf, it's actually improved in MKIII
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Post by W0lfBane on May 30, 2017 11:53:54 GMT
The charger and firefly are the only amazing Cygnar lights imo. I like redeemers more than hunters . I've seen a Redeemer beat a Hunter in a 1 on 1 firefight during a battle in MKII, and aside from the choir nerf, it's actually improved in MKIII I don't know how that is unless the redeemer has 3 focus to boost all its attack rolls
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 30, 2017 12:09:42 GMT
I've seen a Redeemer beat a Hunter in a 1 on 1 firefight during a battle in MKII, and aside from the choir nerf, it's actually improved in MKIII I don't know how that is unless the redeemer has 3 focus to boost all its attack rolls Basically, yes. The change to ROF and Power up helped the Redeemer immensely. I wouldn't rely on a Redeemer to do it consistently, but I like that it's possible, and that the Cygnar player in question now targets my Redeemers more than my choir.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 30, 2017 12:52:32 GMT
I don't know how that is unless the redeemer has 3 focus to boost all its attack rolls Basically, yes. The change to ROF and Power up helped the Redeemer immensely. I wouldn't rely on a Redeemer to do it consistently, but I like that it's possible, and that the Cygnar player in question now targets my Redeemers more than my choir. Sounds like an exploitable tactical overreaction to me. FWIW, though, cygnar lights aren't exactly heavily armored. One or two good whacks put them out of commission even if they're still alive. Splash damage could easily accomplish this.
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