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Post by borderprince on May 25, 2017 5:00:28 GMT
People are kind of talking past one another: Lolwut? Circle isn't even remotely overpowered, and has quite possibly the largest proportion of complete and utter crap in their model roster of any faction in the entire game. The whole faction crutches on 2 - 3 specific lists, comprised of a total of 15 different model choices between them, and they haven't had anything egregious since the Una2 nerf. But it is possible for a faction to be competitively overpowered even if most of the faction isn't very good. They are two different issues. If there are enough choices to produce two or three very strong lists, a faction has what it needs to be strong in Steamroller (which is what most people are concerned about). It doesn't matter for this assessment if there are hundreds of bad options, provided there are enough (even if barely) which are good. That kind of situation also makes things very tricky from a design perspective - you need to design stuff that works well across the board, but isn't totally broken when in combination with the already good stuff. That will make CID tricky too. I think PP have actually been thinking about the options:power issue a bit more (and longer) with Circle than other factions: Bradigus only using Wolds dates from Mk2, and Una2 only really wanting flying warbeasts were and are attempts (not always successful) to try and make something new while limiting the available options to them, making balancing in theory easier. That type of restrictive approach is now being implemented more widely with theme forces, but not at a caster level. |
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Post by macdaddy on May 25, 2017 11:17:24 GMT
Circle hasn't been OP since the 2UNA and scarsfell nerf. If you think Circle is OP check tourney standings. Or play Khador into them with 10 jacks...or most anything Ret.
We are good competatively but have little to no faction diversity. A lot of options are just bad. For me I'd rather never place in a tourney with lots of different lists than place in every tourney with the exact same lists. I like diversity.
Technically trolls can be competative but they are limited to about 3 Warbeasts options and significantly less casters.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2017 11:35:30 GMT
Well… You'll have mostly Cygnar players investing in it and they'll (other as well, most likely) will want something that is as good a choice as what they currently have… Which is a lot. Non Cygnar players that think their stuff is too strong as cast into a position of tearing down or cross-class comparisions (somethign that has a bad rep in this game.) neither of which is very appealing or convincing.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 25, 2017 11:48:35 GMT
oncomingstorm. I was specifically talking about your "I'm tired of people calling circle a "power faction" because [reason that has nothing to do with the definition of power faction]" comment. That's why i even quoted it in my post. By this point i don't really care about this argument I'm just interested in defending myself from people claiming i don't read posts before responding to them.
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Post by Aegis on May 25, 2017 11:54:15 GMT
Interesting how just mentioning a faction in a list of the most perceived as competitive ones (noone said OP, just perceived as competitive) generates such amount of fuss and players of that faction running here to express how much they feel to be "not that good" and "limited".
If this topic is an indicator of what is coming in CID, I'll better start to get pop corns...
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Post by macdaddy on May 25, 2017 12:31:32 GMT
Interesting how just mentioning a faction in a list of the most perceived as competitive ones (noone said OP, just perceived as competitive) generates such amount of fuss and players of that faction running here to express how much they feel to be "not that good" and "limited". If this topic is an indicator of what is coming in CID, I'll better start to get pop corns... Our faction is limited. I remember not too long ago cygnar players complaining thier only good casters were Haley 2 3 and Stryker  Khador players complain about overcosted jacks, trolls complain, Skorne used to complain. Every faction complains. Me and oncoming were just debunking a comment staying circle as OP which I think we can all agree is just not true  if Haley 2 Isn't OP then circle sure as heck isn't either I'm not going to pretend that circle isn't powerful but we sure as heck don't have a lot of options to compete at a higher level. I will also be waiting expectantly with popcorn for the cygnar cid. Saltyness will be everywhere I'll just need to bring butter. |
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Post by dicebedamned on May 25, 2017 13:24:22 GMT
It strikes me that a lot of the power level debates spring up based on tourney placements achieved using lists that capitalise on taking only the good stuff to extreme levels (aka spam of the good stuff to the point it becomes op).
I think a lot of the above would be resolved if there was some sort of universal FA per type. AKA no more than x jacks in y points games, or even just FA 2 on everything. Solos often get FA2 because they have the potential to be a negative play experience, well playing 4-5 of the same jack, or even playing into 5+ heavies is a negative play experience and it is skewing everything.
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Post by Cryptix on May 25, 2017 13:28:13 GMT
This thread is for discussing the primecast, not for power levels
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Post by chillychinaman on May 26, 2017 5:43:27 GMT
Having just read the NQ, I wonder how close the Trencher Express Team is going to be to Ret's Heavy Rifle Team. The story makes it sound like a long-range solo remover, however the description sounds like an IKRPG equivalent to an anti-material rifle.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517 
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Post by skormedlover87 on May 27, 2017 0:10:16 GMT
Having just read the NQ, I wonder how close the Trencher Express Team is going to be to Ret's Heavy Rifle Team. The story makes it sound like a long-range solo remover, however the description sounds like an IKRPG equivalent to an anti-material rifle. In the fiction it's both. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 27, 2017 0:14:25 GMT
I really hope the sniper trolls pack a punch, or they aren't gonna have much of a place.
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Post by mikethefish on May 28, 2017 21:27:06 GMT
But that's the point. Everyone is in that boat as far as I'm aware. It doesn't stop some factions from being exceptionally competitive, even if they do have a limit on viable lists. That's why the idea of Cygnar going into CID is interesting, as well as other powerful factions. Most factions actually have a problem with infantry being, if you excuse my french, dogshit. The only kind worth taking are calvary or 8 boxes because taking single wound with the amount of infantry hate is a problem. Which is totally why you have seen a return of dudespam lists, even before 2017 SR hits. Way to make a cracker Jack evaluation of the current meta (Insert sarcasm here) |
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Post by Cryptix on May 29, 2017 0:09:33 GMT
Most factions actually have a problem with infantry being, if you excuse my french, dogshit. The only kind worth taking are calvary or 8 boxes because taking single wound with the amount of infantry hate is a problem. Which is totally why you have seen a return of dudespam lists, even before 2017 SR hits. Way to make a cracker Jack evaluation of the current meta (Insert sarcasm here) What actual infantry do you see. Ghost fleet is only good with Denny1 and other casters that can bring major armor cracking. The whole gimmick is a Scourge + Parasite + Feat assassination, and before that taking things down with Parasite and Crippling Grasp. |
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Post by Swampmist on May 29, 2017 0:20:57 GMT
Which is totally why you have seen a return of dudespam lists, even before 2017 SR hits. Way to make a cracker Jack evaluation of the current meta (Insert sarcasm here) What actual infantry do you see. Ghost fleet is only good with Denny1 and other casters that can bring major armor cracking. The whole gimmick is a Scourge + Parasite + Feat assassination, and before that taking things down with Parasite and Crippling Grasp. Actually, it also sees play with Terminus because sac pawn + rengrave + sheer force of attrition. |
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Post by mikethefish on May 29, 2017 13:24:20 GMT
Which is totally why you have seen a return of dudespam lists, even before 2017 SR hits. Way to make a cracker Jack evaluation of the current meta (Insert sarcasm here) What actual infantry do you see. Ghost fleet is only good with Denny1 and other casters that can bring major armor cracking. The whole gimmick is a Scourge + Parasite + Feat assassination, and before that taking things down with Parasite and Crippling Grasp. Oh I don't know - a few random things off the top of my head... Retribution uses Sentinels all the time, as well as the Houseguard (who just got a bonkers good theme list). Khador frequently spams Winter Guard in their theme list - especially with max rockets - and the Iron Fang theme list seems common use. Mercs have had a surge in popularity, and their best lists are Thexus Drudge Spam, and Damanio w/Trencher boat and Steelheads. Praetorians are commonplace in Skorne, and Brigands are the best thing about Minions right now. You just mentioned Ghost Fleet, and Mechanithralls going down some points is going to make them appear a lot more. But yeah...single would infantry is never seen at all  |
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Lolwut? Circle isn't even remotely overpowered, and has quite possibly the largest proportion of complete and utter crap in their model roster of any faction in the entire game. 
Khador players complain about overcosted jacks, trolls complain, Skorne used to complain. Every faction complains. Me and oncoming were just debunking a comment staying circle as OP which I think we can all agree is just not true 
if Haley 2 Isn't OP then circle sure as heck isn't either 
