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Post by Netherby on May 23, 2017 13:16:32 GMT
The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +18 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Scrapjack - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 18 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 So your Karchev list looks pretty fine to me. But it's difficult to go to far wrong with just putting a stack of jacks in with a bit of support. I think you probably just need to work on your model placement more with him. He's tough, but he's basically a heavy jack. You should have a decent idea of what it takes to kill one of your jacks. It takes the same thing to kill Karchev. If you camp focus then each point of focus is roughly one extra hit he can take over what it normally takes to kill a jack (though this won't be true if they are very high strength, it's a reasonable rule of thumb). I'm not going to suggest you don't play Old Witch. I actually think that newer players should use very easy to kill casters. This is because it quickly drives home the lesson of caster placement. Just because a tougher caster may not die in the same situation doesn't mean they should have been in that position to begin with. Your current Old Witch list is going to struggle too much into anything that isn't infantry spam. Firstly I wouldn't recommend taking Rifle Corps and Widowmakers in the same list (they do almost the same thing and you don't need both). Take one or the other and take a full unit with max rockets and Joe if you are taking rifles. I also wouldn't take the battle engine with her currently. Her Field Marshal ability is really good, so you probably want more jacks to take advantage of it. I'm also not sold on Eiryss, yes she is good for the assassination run but I would rather put the points into something else.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on May 23, 2017 13:18:21 GMT
This now reminds me of my own learning curve. My caster ov choice was Vladimir 2 though and my approach was evolution of the list to match the challenges I meet. He is quite good at that being very versatile in army selection. First - I agree with the above suggestions. Make sure assasination is not your loss condition. Play overly safe. Ask to roll back succesfull assasinations and proceed for attrition. So attrition is your target now. Learn what challenges you in specific matchups and adjust your list/strategy to counter that. Example could be improving ranged precense in Karchev list against legion. Switch to WGC theme and take some rifles. Now it is not so easy for legion player to setup nice charges and take you piecemeal. My personal view is that theme forces are easier to master but less usfull for your overall skill. But that is not an issue atm. You'll come to that latter. Also if you do the above you will soon find out that your main loss condition is now scenario (even with SR 2017) this is great and that is the next skill level you need to tackle. Be safe on assasination and win attrition while not giving up scenario. Sounds not very easy right? Otherwise there is plenty of people around to give advise on specific matches. Feel free to ask There is nothing bad in loosing a lot. The bad thing is when you don't learn from that and improve yourself. Hope this one was motivational
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Post by Xtreme on May 23, 2017 13:20:12 GMT
Problem areas I am aware of and trying to work on.
I am still getting surprised a lot as I don't know what my opponents stuff does.
I'm putting too much faith in Karchev's survivability and leaving him in bad spots.
But I think losing jacks early and not getting a good piece trade is leaving me open to assassinations later in the game.
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Post by Netherby on May 23, 2017 13:32:10 GMT
I am still getting surprised a lot as I don't know what my opponents stuff does. So if you're serious about getting good and haven't already done this, get War Room and buy the complete deck pack. It's $80 or something? So a bit expensive, but well worth it. Before you start a game, ask your opponent what each thing is and make their list in War Room. Now through the game you can be constantly looking at what their stuff does and following along with abilities as they use them. Then hopefully after a game instead of knowing 'the flappy legion beast does some thing that makes other models move', you will know what the beast is called, what the ability is called and how much it costs along with the area it works in, models it effects and distance they move.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 23, 2017 19:24:46 GMT
You never stop sucking, you just get worse at sucking until you suck at sucking harder than your opponent.
In more clear and helpful terms, roll with it, yo! Keep a good attitude about it all. Get caught by gotchas, get screwed by abilities, but remember them. Watch what works not just in general, but for you, specifically.
Finally, a VERY common bit of advice is to never blame dice. This is wrong! Dice do happen, but the proper procedure is not this: "*&%&^$* juggernaut can't kill a *(^*&%%&())))*^*&^%&^ repenter?!" but instead this: "Wow, that was.......a LOT of ones. well, the repenter's still there, but it IS locked in combat with a juggy...not really a problem and it'll block charge lanes on the return. I just won't have juggy available for freely charging next turn. Hey, maybe I can make use of the near free road to war trigger on feat next turn!"
and when the dice lose the game for you, it's fine to admit it. Admit in the after action discussion that it happened, but focus on the strategies anyway.
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Post by Blargaliscious on May 23, 2017 21:16:16 GMT
This might be more of a general Warmachine question but I only intend to play Khador so thought perhaps some more focused responses would be helpful. I'm 37 games in, (I've sadly tracked them here ) I knew getting into the game I was going to take my lumps for awhile. And for some time losses came easily with lessons learned. But of late i'm just starting to feel like i'm out played and not sure how to get better. I know it's hard to offer detailed advice without seeing list matchups etc. I don't mind sharing lists if requested. Are there any general things you suggest new to novice players focus on? Guess i'm hoping there is some magic advice that will help me out. Still love Old Witch and Karchev. But i'm starting to look at Strakhov 2 as well.
First off, welcome to Warmachine and Hordes!!! Now, as for your tracking sheet and win-loss record, I haven't looked at it, and I don't care. Neither should you. What is more important is this: Are you having fun?
We play a wargame. It is a game. The purpose is to have fun. That is what matters, not a win-loss record. If your purpose for playing Warmachine and Hordes is to win at all costs and curb-stomp other people, then I want you to go away. Now would be a good time.
(Blarg stands, absent-mindedly whistling while waiting to see if you get the point and decide to stick around...)
Since you are still reading, I'm going to assume that you want to enhance your fun by improving your playing ability. Good! Here are my suggestions:
1) Don't be defeated by your defeats, learn from your defeats. The first thing out of your mouth after the winner has been determined is "What did I do right, and what did I do wrong?" regardless of who won. I've been playing the game for about 10 years and if I don't know how I lost (or how I won) I'll ask that question.
2) Learn to drive a car before you go truck racing. You are learning to play Warmachine (and Khador for that matter) with 2 of the most odd-ball warcasters we have, and you are looking to expand into a third that even I'm not sure what I'd do with when I get him painted. It's like you are trying to learn how to drive a typical American left-hand drive car by practicing with a right-hand drive British taxi and a Brinks armored truck. I suggest that you start off with a family sedan, then maybe a pick-up truck, and then maybe a sports car.
Vlad1 (family sedan) is an excellent place to start - He stands back casting Signs and Portents while the army does the dirty work like the pack of polished turds that they are. If they can't get the job done then he gets in there casting Blood of Kings and shows people what a close combat monster really is.
Butcher1 (pick-up truck) is a pretty durable, simple murder machine. He is the embodiment of "If brute force doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough of it."
Sorscha1 (sports car) is another favorite of mine to start playing - a lot of people will use her as a support caster to play the attrition game (why is beyond me) while I find her to be an assassin caster of the highest caliber.
While I'm not going to tell you *not* to play Old Witch and Karchev, I think you are making a mistake learning to play the game with those two. Master the basic casters before you decide to get into the more interesting casters.
3) If you stagnate your army lists, you are going to stagnate your learning, and you are teaching your opponents to play against your lists. So, you are playing 2 lists primarily, right? How much are you shaking up your army lists and playing something wacky and different? Please accept my apologies if I am incorrect, but I'm betting you aren't throwing new combos out on the board that often. That is a mistake. The only reason why a player puts the same lists out on the board, with the same screwy casters, over and over is to fine-tune the list for tournament play. You need to tune yourself before you can tune a list.
Part of the thing you need to do before you start tuning *any* army list is you need to "find your inner kommander." You might have good Old Witch and Karchev army lists, but if their way of fighting doesn't fit your way of thinking or fighting then your win-loss record is going to suck. Find the warcaster that fits you, don't fit yourself to them until you have gotten really good.
The other part of what you need to do is expand what you have to use so you can get a better idea of what army you need. Either buy more variety of Khador or start proxying different things before you buy. (Bartertown.com is an excellent place to buy an army on the cheap.)
4) Don't get your army list off of the internet, figure it out on the playing board. Everyone is going to play the game differently, and you are no different. Treat an army list on the internet as a suggestion, nothing more. While you assume that everyone that posts on the internet knows what they are doing, that is not a good assumption to make. They may know what is good for them, but it may not be good for you. I've seen army lists that have led me in a good direction, and I have seen army lists that have made me wonder how that guy walks upright and not dragging his knuckles.
<<< --- >>>
How long does it take not to suck?
Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment. So, what are you doing right, what are you doing wrong, and what are you doing over and over? Go figure it out.
But hey, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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Post by Xtreme on May 23, 2017 21:41:46 GMT
Thank you all for taking the time to respond, there is a lot here to absorb.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 23, 2017 23:19:31 GMT
If you're in "learning not to suck" phase, you should drop the OW, she's underpowered. And while Karchev is okay most of the matchups you lose with him are actually his bad matchup, i.e. Legion, Amon, Circle. Though the amount you lose with assassination on him suggests you do something very wrong as he's quite hard to kill. Do you not camp? Do you put him in melee threat range of 2+ heavies? He shouldn't die otherwise. I'd say you should try other casters, starting from more popular ones. Sorry but that is almost never a good advice to tell someone drop X, because its not good. In my experience its often the other way around. People who start in "Easymode" with the strongest picks tend to lern less because the gap is closer. But that may be my personal experience talking. Adapting your lists to metagame is part of the warmachine experience. 37 games is a lot of games. I think if after about 10-20 games you're still dissatisfied with results then it's time to change lists. Yes, there are casters that you can just master and have better results like Haley 2 for example. Karchev and OW are not such casters in my opinion (OW could be, but she's an errata short of being good). In Khador the prime caster that will improve your winrate along with experience is B3, at least that's the one I'm sure of, there's probably more.
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Post by tapecrawler on May 24, 2017 1:16:03 GMT
Coming from a background with a few other war games, there are some things that seem to be universal. One is picking an army that mirrors your instinctive strategy. I learned this over the years playing different games with the same people. I have a very aggressive in your face play style and my friend that I've played against the most is very defensive minded. He's most comfortable turtling up and letting his opponent come to him. Once you figure out your play style, look at the casters and find one that matches you. The two casters you play have very different strategies and this can cause problems by playing too aggressive with Old Witch and not aggressive enough with Kharchev. Once you learn to play naturally without handicapping yourself by forcing yourself into an uncomfortable fit play wise, then you can venture out and try different casters. ( I will admit that Old Witch is one of my favorite casters, but I know I need to learn the game better before venturing forth with the most difficult casters we have .)
Another thing that helps me is I used to run Soviet infantry in Flames of War which is a very aggressive list that dies in droves. I quickly learned that being emotionally invested in the minis themselves after spending weeks prepping, painting, and basing them was silly. They don't die or are forfeited at the end of the game so it didn't matter if 99% of my army was removed from the table as long as I still won. This was different than most of my opponents. They would spend months researching the right uniforms, camouflage, and equipment before painting and would be so emotionally invested in their minis that I won many games just by destroying their favorite unit. They would be so thrown off their game that they would make silly mistakes. It was easy to learn this just by talking to them before the game. The point of this is don't be those guys. You still get to take your models home with you at the end of the day. 😉
If you're getting frustrated with your win/loss ratio, try changing things up. You are trying to learn against two people (mainly from what you've said) that have more experience and probably have optimized lists against what you bring. If you bring the same lists every time, it's easy for opponents to tech against them.
But the main goal is not necessarily to win, but to spend an enjoyable time with friends.
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Post by skathrex on May 24, 2017 6:40:17 GMT
smoothcriminal the problem I have with your statement is not that changing things up could be the right advice the problem is the reasoning. tapecrawler said it pretty good. If its not your playstile, change it. But saying "because its not good" is a purley subjective term. Yes OW might not be the best right now, but there may be a place for her with Jaws and she certainly gets more traction. Additionally she is one of the more difficult casters. More so than B3 with his "easy to play, hard to master" playstyle. But back to topic: Maybe its also time to learn the first steps about meta gaming or "What is a good matchup and what is a bad one" OW will almost always be a bad matchup into legion and leaver her really vulnarable because her main defensive tools are clouds and stealth both of which legion beasts ignore.
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Post by Xtreme on May 24, 2017 23:46:16 GMT
Alright so I think we have determined a few things.
-I still have a lot to learn about the basics -I need to learn more about my opponents stuff -I didn't choose the easiest casters to start with.
So to correct these i'm considering spending some time playing an easier caster and focusing my attention on avoiding assassinations. While also being more of a student of the other factions and the threats they pose.
So i'm going to start another thread asking for advice for a new list to play during this period.
My plan is to then be a better player and return to the two Casters I really like.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on May 25, 2017 19:41:54 GMT
My two cents is try to find a better player than you with a good attitude to mentor you a bit, if some of the game depth isn't clicking for you well and that's leading to losses. This isn't necessarily list dojo (but can be), but more about trying to transfer some of the more intangible table skills (in my opinion). This would be stuff like:
-Helping you get a sense of the REAL board state and trajectory, not the one you are perceiving. -Helping you figure out the other lists "tricks". -Helping you manage piece trades. -Help you understand what the priority targets are on both sides of the table. -Help you avoid assassinations, or recognize when you are in a 'do or die' situation.
For some people this is fine after the game, for some people it's more helpful if it's during play. I find that in most games there are lots of moments where I smile to myself when I see what an opponent does in an activation because I know he just unintentionally handed me a huge advantage or possibly the game. Find someone who is willing to play some games with you and point this out so you are aware of the consequences of choices you are making in game as they are relevant, not three turns later. It's also important to be in a receptive headspace when you're doing that or with the other player, the criticism is trying to help you improve.
In example, for your Karchev list this could be a turn by turn discussion of what you can do with Warpath and the likely consequences (worthwhile piece trades, ineffectual trade attempts leading to you giving up 'jacks for free, etc).
Also everyone learns differently, so this may or may not work for you.
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Post by Xtreme on May 28, 2017 13:53:10 GMT
Going to try this list vs legion today. Working on staying back and not getting assassinated.
Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 3 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
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Post by Xtreme on May 28, 2017 20:47:09 GMT
Played 2 games against Legion with that list. With the focus on not getting Assassinated I did well.
First game was against a Thagrosh beast heavy list. Lost on scenario in turn 6, when he had finally beat me down to the point I didn't have enough left to put up a fight. Angel tail with armour piercing is brutal.
Second game against Lilith, ranged attacks from both sides, and his were just a lot more effective. Lost on Scenario turn 4.
Both games lost Behemoth early, trying to work out ways to keep him alive longer. Not sure the Forge Seer is very useful with Kozlov, he seems to not have much of an issue sharing focus. Thinking about dropping him and maybe trying to squeeze a Ogrun in for Shield guard.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 28, 2017 21:25:12 GMT
If behemoth is tough to keep alive, then while you're still learning threat ranges I recommend swapping him out for more jacks and just playing Koslov in Winterguard theme. Drop Sylys and the Forge Seer too. With your free points you can trade those out for two Juggernauts and a Kodiak, and 3 advance moves (I'd say Destroyer for threat range, and the Kodiak to have one jack way down his grill).
War Room Army
Khador - Koslov
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad - WJ: +28 - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Kodiak - PC: 13
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 3
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 4 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand ---
GENERATED : 05/28/2017 17:22:33 BUILD ID : 2042.17-05-22
Glad you're getting in more games. Koslov is a good caster to learn with (and a good caster).
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