|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 12, 2018 6:35:48 GMT
So... has anyone gotten any confirmation on who this model is supposed to be? Looks like he's holding a multi-barreled hand cannon and a crow bar... So... Harlan Versh or Dougal MacNaile? Part of me wants to say that it is a Gordon Freeman rip-off. Shaw maybe?
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 12, 2018 6:32:15 GMT
Ding Ding Ding! We have the answer! Why is hard to keep less experienced players interested? We have the answer right here! You're preaching to the choir on that one. Still not sure why you're getting pissy with me because I think it would be a good idea for PP to compile non-SR scenarios in a convenient manner, though. I'm not being pissy with you. I'm pissy at the situation where a too significant portion of too many metas are so focused on Steam Roller that getting any other game, including a game for newbies to learn, is next to impossible.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 11, 2018 23:27:10 GMT
And WHY do I play it all the time? Because unless it's a (usually poorly attended, because there are a fair number of SR diehards where I live) narrative or league event, that's what everyone else plays all the time. Most of the local FLGSs, if I go there, there is a good chance that someone has already set up wrestling belt or circle and two rectangles when I get there, and I've also gotten negative comments for playing league games or using non-SR terrain placement. So, it's easier to just play SR scenarios than try to persuade someone to do something different in an environment where people at other tables jump down my throat if I do something like line up multiple trench templates in such a way that it looks like a real trench. Doubly so if they don't have a copy of NQ#43 or whatever on them. Ding Ding Ding! We have the answer! Why is hard to keep less experienced players interested? We have the answer right here! Anyways, I'm not throwing petards at anyone here (okay, maybe a little at the "Warmachine is srs bsns; I don't have time for your fun bullshit" crowd), and I'm not sure where you got the impression that I'm trying to attack you or anyone else, or why you're being hostile. I'm just saying that "getting the SR-die-hards to look at something else," as you said, might be a little easier if PP, once in a while, took these scenarios that they put resources into developing, collated them, and made them easier for everyone to find rather than sprinkling them throughout piles and piles of old books and magazines. I know I would buy a book or magazine of just scenarios, and I wouldn't be alone in that. It won't help. You can have scenarios in encyclopedias, little pamphlets, whatever, but they aren't going to help until the problem listed above is addressed. That problem leads to a toxic community which kills itself partly because of people leaving, but also because of no new blood coming in.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 11, 2018 21:34:40 GMT
Indeed there are. The hard part is getting the SR-die-hards to look at something else. PP also doesn’t make it easy. Honestly, I’m not crazy about a lot of the SR scenarios. “Stand in this square to score enough points to win” isn’t exactly the most narratively interesting scenarios, and in some sense scoring points doesn’t quite represent the actual ebb and flow of a battle. For example, no one says “Well, Napoleon’s biggest tactical error at Waterloo was when Private Poutine stepped outside of the giant circle on his left flank so that unit couldn’t score a point. Had he gotten someone to shoot Private Poutine in the back, however, he would have scored and won.” A lot of the narrative scenarios are better on this aspect — the scenarios actually represent things that might actually happen in a fantasy battle, and aren’t just “stand in the giant circle to score more points.” The catch is, even if I find another player who similarly wants to play a more narrative scenario, it’s a lot easier to just throw down an SR scenario because it’s easier. We both know the scenario and have the elements for it in our bags, and have a common point of reference. While PP has a lot of really cool and interesting scenarios buried in NQ, old league documents, etc. If they were to go through this and collate then every couple years, then it would be a lot easier to say “okay, scenario package, page 17 looks cool, let’s do that.” Instead, I, and most other players, just default to Steamroller scenarios because we have the packet in our bag. I think if PP put all the old scenarios in one place, people might play them more. And WHY do you know the SR scenarios so well and have all the elements in your bag? Because you play it all the time. If you're not going to go through the effort of looking for new scenarios, then obviously you'll not find many. If you don't go through the effort of trying new scenarios, then you'll never get familiar with them. There are also scenarios in the Prime/Primals, too, did you forget about those? Are you all so hard up on figuring out how to make a scenario yourselves that no one ever considers making one up? All I see is someone hoisting themselves up on their own petard here.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 11, 2018 16:04:15 GMT
There needs to be more explicit “non SR games” options, more story driven scenarios, campaigns, There are tons of non-SR scenarios in NQ Prime. The last two each had like half a dozen scenarios or more spread across WM/H and CoI, I think #1 and #2 had less but still had a few each. Indeed there are. The hard part is getting the SR-die-hards to look at something else.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 9, 2018 22:34:07 GMT
If they are to be the Rhulic gunline, give them Carapace with a Girded Order (or vice versa) and increase their range. They may have to lose Practiced Manuevers with this, though. In return, they lose Double Time as an order, while giving them the Order to do double shots. This would mean Guns Blazing would have to be updated to be more interesting, though. Wow, zero to Carapace in one post! Normally, it takes at least three in a "how would you buff...." thread. Their guns should definitely have Armour Piercing as well. Like others have said, they need a role. That role seems to have been intended to be "defensive shooting unit"--a well-protected unit designed for defending a position with massed close-range fire against enemies who are coming to them--but they're just too easy to ignore or outshoot. To fill that role, they need a way to force enemies to pay attention to them, with either more dangerous shooting (Burst Fire?), or a control ability like Covering Fire. They also need a way to get to a place where they can't just be ignored, and reconciling that with Steamroller's mad rush to the zones is hard. I forgot to mention Shield Wall would be lost in that situation. Carapace is largely inferior to Shield Wall due to its targeted affect, while Shield Wall only cares about positioning (and chained weapons). Carapace would actually make sense for a ranged unit, but then the Carapace-granting shields would be useless in melee.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 9, 2018 19:16:29 GMT
I don't think it will happen due to gun bunny spam, but if there was something to avoid it (maybe a rule that he can only take heavies?), it would likely look a look like that. Being Focus 3 would mean a 6" radius. Jamming more than 3 bunnies into that will be difficult. Being speed 4 will also mean that he's getting to the fight a little later than the rest of the (non rhulic) army. And, since he's a merc, just restrict who he'll work for. Also remember that bunnies are 6 points each and won't be free. So, 4 points for Dorf0 and you have a max of 11 bunnies if you want absolutely nothing else in your army. But then were back to being limited by control range. Add on to the fact that few Themes beyond Irregulars would like to see them (and those Themes can be easily updated or avoided with proper Merc listing), and you can find that Gun Bunny spam is already in place about or in Themeless games.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 8, 2018 5:24:50 GMT
It's hard to say, really. Right now, they are a little bit of everything, and that's part of what makes them suck. They are a CRA/CMA/Shield Wall unit. Really, they need another unit to take over one of their roles, and WAs wouldn't hurt, either. Off hand, I would say, get them in to a dedicated role and buff from there.
If they are to be THE Shield Wall Merc/Rhulic unit, great. Reduce the range of their guns (and maybe increase the POW) and give them Point Blank or Gunfighter while making their Shield Wall or Double Time orderless. They would obviously lose CRA or CMA (depending on which gun rule they go with), but having both is really killing the unit's usefulness.
If they are to be the Rhulic gunline, swap Shield Wall for Carapace with a Girded Order (or vice versa) and increase their range. They may have to lose Practiced Manuevers with this, though. In return, they lose Double Time as an order, while giving them the Order to do double shots. This would mean Guns Blazing would have to be updated to be more interesting, though.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 20:14:34 GMT
So, beat your students, sure, stomp them, no. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the person new to the experience, it sure will. I think the distinction is, does the loser learn something from the loss? Does it feel like at some point they could have done something differently and had a chance at winning? Have they learned how to play the game any better, or is it a confusing and frustrating experience of "random special rule, other random special rule, I win"? My very early games of Warmachine, when I was still figuring out the basic rules, were against Rahn, and his ridiculous turn-two "feat, force hammer, tk, tk, battle mages, jeej" assassinations. And they nearly sold me off the game, because I couldn't understand what was happening, and how the heck I was meant to defend against it. That's part of it. Providing them the capacity to react and to hone their skills is another while they are learning, especially in a turn-based game where time isn't as much an issue. Note, that is only for game nights where one can be expected to be learning a game. If a newbie goes in to a tournament, there is no expectation of being kind and should expect to be stomped with only his memory as his education.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 17:27:28 GMT
Where do we find out about "zero casters"? The current ones are in CiD, at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 6:37:18 GMT
Here's a crazy idea. There are four lesser Warlocks that come with their own unique Warbeasts. The gator and the farrow can each take more than their unique Warbeast, too, effectively giving Thornfall and Blindwater the first lesser Warlocks.
Now, we have a Llael/human junior Warcaster that seems to do decently enough, but he doesn't have a unique 'Jack for himself.
What if there were Rhulic and Cephalyx junior Warcasters that both came with their own unique Warjack just like Wrong-eye and Rorsh? Would you be interested in that setup, or prefer them to be like Crosse and take any appropriate (and generic) Warjack?
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 6:30:21 GMT
So, they said not every faction will be getting one, but in due time a few other's will (this was on their live feed on Wednesday). I would expect that it will be the original battlebox casters for hordes when hordes gets theirs. And I doubt CoC or Grymkin will be getting one And odds are Mercenaries, Minions, and Crucible Guard will also be in that category. I wouldn't bet that the original battlebox warlocks will be there, not all the battlebox 'Casters are currently available, specifically Stryker and Kreoss (though, they may come later). While it might be interesting to see Morghul as a solo, I honestly rather see the percocious Hexeris in that position, honestly.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 4:17:26 GMT
Well mates you all seem to agree that newbies need to be babysit, but I don't think it is that way. Stomp em, like I get usually stomped, but after the game talk and learn with the guy that stomped you. Listen to his list advice, listen to model feedback to avoid buying useless stuff, learn about his tricks and tactics. But don't expect everybody to go easy on you. Of course, the first few games I too say "go easy", but after a while all newbies should start being matched with competitive gamers too. But it's the competitive gamer responsability to not just win the game, but to teach them how to get better. Heck, have you ever practiced some martial arts? I did Muay Thai, if I sparred my instructor chances were i couldn't even land a single good blow on him, he wouldn't let me hit him cause i would feel good doing it. He is better, he wins. After the sparring, or during it, he always gave me the most solid advice anyway and I learned really a lot from his teachings. Not all the stompings come to do harm, if done correctly you can teach and stomp at the same time. There is a huge difference between not letting your student get a good blow and stomping someone. If your teacher always treated you like you were the highest rank, then you would be repeatedly stomped and having a hard time learning or wanting to do anything. I wrestled in 8th and 9th grade till I broke my arm in practice (and then got lazy). Any single one of the varsity team could have turned me in to a pretzel, and if we were doing unlimited sparring, they would. But when it came time to learn the moves, they allowed me to throw them or turn them in to a pretzel so I could develop the muscle memory to have a chance against those closer to my skill level. I'm kind of reminded of the anime, Kenichi, the Mightiest Disciple. There's a character who is a Muay Thai champion (Apachai Hopachai) with the title, "God of the Underworld" or "Grim Reaper" (in the english dub, anyway). While Kenichi trains with him, he gets carried away and lays Kenichi out in quick blow where he needs to be resuscitated. That last part is stomping right there. So, beat your students, sure, stomp them, no. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the person new to the experience, it sure will.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 6, 2018 5:24:28 GMT
1. you still get the jist of what I'm going for, and are just splitting hairs at that point. Proper communication leads to proper understanding. Use the right words to avoid confusions. You still left one out. 2. Fang was right, as if you read the whole comment (unless english isn't your main language (which I realize is a possibility)) I HEAVILY almost without doubt imply the implications of a BATTLE GROUP controller having the ability to take gun bunnies. Proper communication leads to proper understanding. You may have wanted it implied, but not everyone would understand that. English is my first language, but I've also trained as a computer programmer and IT where proper terminology is more important than in law. As I said, I am not a mind reader, and can only go by what you wrote. And you only wrote about the Jacks themselves, not Jacks in a battlegroup. 3. I only mentioned Ossrum because he already has a title, and making a Captain, or Private Ossrum, seems pretty straightforward as opposed to... Miner Gorten? I mean... besides the obvious jokes about Gorten being a child, and short jokes and the what not... doesn't really sound all that great, or at least not as good as Captain or Private Ossrum. I do agree that Durgen might be the better option for the naming option. Agreed. I am not saying it would be a bad idea, I just would not get my hopes up on the newest Rhulic Warcaster getting a Journeyman before the original Rhulic Warcaster or the mad bomber, any more than I would expect to see Damiano. So far, the ones they have introduced have been Prime Warcasters, which leaves the latest ones low on the totem pole. As far as I know they haven't announced this to be a hard rule, though, so anything can happen. 4. MacBain could be an option, but when the contracts were around Ashlyn was kinda the poster child for the Highborn Contract, Magnus for Four Star, Shae of Talion, Gorten (until Ossrum came around) for Searforge, and Thexus for Operating Theatre. The others are still good casters, but I feel like most material relating to those contracts was represented by the casters mentioned respectively. Although Contracts are no longer a thing, there is still a loose adherence, thanks to themes, to the old contracts (generally speaking lest you decide to split hairs again). As such I feel if they were going to choose an "recognizable" mercenary caster they would choose one of those. Talion was / is a smaller merc subsection, same with Cephalyx, and same with Rhulic. We already had discussed Magnus, which leaves Ashlyn. I may be wrong, but regardless there is no need to be snarky just because my thought process is undesirable to you, or you're not in agreeance with what I've said since reading the thread though, I also could see Shae0 being a thing since the Pirate CID is just around the corner as Xintas pointed out. Though Shae is still on his first incarnation :/ soooo... not sure as he doesn't seem to follow suit with the rest of "0" journeymen being a multi incarnation caster. Yeah, about anyone but Magnus and Ashlynn could easily be possible as the first so long as we ignore introduction date. The only reason Magnus is out is because it would require some interesting backstory to keep him as a Merc, and he would be Partisan: Cygnar as well (there are far too many of those around). The reason I don't think we'll see Ashlynn is largely because the only Merc Journeyman is already Llaelese, and it would be very odd to see Ashlynn0 with Cross2 (though Sevy0 with Feora3 raises eyebrows, too) as well as overbearing on the Resistance's theme. Honsetly, though, I don't think the Gun Bunny situation isn't as dire as you make it out, so it would make the Rhulics the best option for the first largely because of their lack of journeymen. The alternative is Cephalyx, and it would just be better to give them a brand new character for that spot then limit its use to literally one Warcaster.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 22:26:26 GMT
He said "dwarf journeyman". That is a battle group controller. You dismissed his argument (not taking about dismissing models but someone's thoughts) by saying they already can take gunners with a jack marshal. I just wanted to point out that a jack marshal is not a battle group controller, and you can't simple wave the concerns away with an argument that suggests they are, it may warrant more discussion than a sarcastic one liner. My other combinations that I mentioned are not side situations, they are just the battle group controller rules and the jack marshal rules and how they affect bunnies, which was what the original comment (BGC) and your retort (JM) are in disagreement on from this angle. But that's not what he said. Here's the pertinent part: The quoted section doesn't bring up the possibilities of dwarf jacks with focus, just dwarf jacks, period. He was worried that other factions would get access to dwarf jacks, and the point is that factions have always had access to dwarf jacks because of jack marshals. It was more prevalent before because of High Shields having jack marshals (both unit leader AND Officer), but that doesn't change the fact that they were and are available to any faction that can take Thor and used to be available to anyone who took High Shields. I find it quite specific, he was worried about gun bunnies with a rhulic battle group controller in other factions so it wasn't out of place. While he did make a single line making a generic 'rhulic too good' but even your snark was focused on bunnies in particular. You may have a point if he bothered to mention the power of Rhulic Jacks under Focus rather than under the auspices of Thor or even a High Shield, but he didn't. You are probably right in the supposition, but that doesn't change what he actually stated. I am not a mind reader, so I cannot go by what a person intended, only what they stated. In the end, we agree on the end conclusion but I admit that my conclusions aren't supported at all because I don't know much. The reason I even responded was because your original argument doesn't support the case, and I find it important that if we are eventually get to a conclusion on this matter it has good support if you get what I mean. Honestly, I don't really agree to their conclusion as much. None of the Dwarf Jacks have an extended control range, and no Rhulic journeyman is going to have more than 5 boxes of damage or 8" of Control, and he's going to be slow. Add in the fact that only Irregulars is going to want a plethora of gun bunnies running around due to how the bonuses work, and it really isn't as much a open/shut case as he is supposing.
|
|