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Post by zwergenkrieger on Mar 4, 2018 15:23:53 GMT
Hi all,
in my local gaming group there is some frustration by the less experienced players. Reason is that most of the members (excluding me) play games for tournament preparation which means hard lists and some experiences with these lists, while some rather casual players don´t have those experience. They normally play less games and they aren´t interested in spamming certain units to get "tournament worthy lists".
So they loose faith. They don´t like to play against those spammy lists and they also feel the gap in experience, meaning even with toned down lists there might still be some kind of uphill battle for the less experienced.
That leads to the fact that member after member leaves the game because they don´t enjoy it any longer.
How can we stop that process? How can we keep the less experienced players in the game?
Shall we play with restrictions?
I´m not a tournament player, but I see the double edged sword here: on one hand, the tournament players want to get experience with their tournament worthy lists, on the other hand they don´t want to loose their mates. I talked to these people and tried to explain them that their "tournament training" leads to the consequences which they want to prevent by themselves. Ie they don´t want to play on tournaments with less experience, but they don´t see that they force others to be on the recieving end of exactly this: to play against more experienced players with a certain degree of uphill battle feeling. IMO this is an example of contradictory conduct. But the tournament players don´t really see it.
Well, that being said I like to offer a solution so that each and every person finds a place in that lovely game. But I don´t know where to start...
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 4, 2018 15:38:43 GMT
The more experienced players might have to bite the bullet and stop tournament play for a while and play less optimised lists. Unless they want their community to die off completly it's up to them to maintain it.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Mar 4, 2018 15:53:54 GMT
Here in Louisville we have separate days at the game shop for casual play and tournament prep. That's probably the ideal setup if you can work it out between your local game store and your players.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 4, 2018 16:37:49 GMT
If there are sufficient number of new players, have them play each other. Propose Journeyman Leagues, and encourage the tournament players to try out lists they normally wouldn't consider. You may also want to see about organizing tournaments that avoid Steamroller behaviors. There are quite a few options for Organized Play that can give you options that can get the Steamrollers out of their comfort zone, and either encourage them to play for the shiggles, or avoid coming and bringing that anti-rookie sentiments.
Before they closed due to rent price changes, one of my LGS had two nights for WM/H, one night was for the tournament prep, and the other was more laid back, intended to be for the rookies or those who wanted to try something completely different.
Unfortunately, no one should be holding another person's game hostage. That means a new player cannot hold a tournament player's game hostage any more than the tournament player can hold a new player's game hostage. That's part of the problem with an established game where people can be ultra-focused.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 4, 2018 16:51:57 GMT
Hi all, in my local gaming group there is some frustration by the less experienced players. Reason is that most of the members (excluding me) play games for tournament preparation which means hard lists and some experiences with these lists, while some rather casual players don´t have those experience. They normally play less games and they aren´t interested in spamming certain units to get "tournament worthy lists". So they loose faith. They don´t like to play against those spammy lists and they also feel the gap in experience, meaning even with toned down lists there might still be some kind of uphill battle for the less experienced. That leads to the fact that member after member leaves the game because they don´t enjoy it any longer. How can we stop that process? How can we keep the less experienced players in the game? Shall we play with restrictions? I´m not a tournament player, but I see the double edged sword here: on one hand, the tournament players want to get experience with their tournament worthy lists, on the other hand they don´t want to loose their mates. I talked to these people and tried to explain them that their "tournament training" leads to the consequences which they want to prevent by themselves. Ie they don´t want to play on tournaments with less experience, but they don´t see that they force others to be on the recieving end of exactly this: to play against more experienced players with a certain degree of uphill battle feeling. IMO this is an example of contradictory conduct. But the tournament players don´t really see it. Well, that being said I like to offer a solution so that each and every person finds a place in that lovely game. But I don´t know where to start... My suggestion can be summed up with this response: "Tell everyone to stop being a dumb-ass." The competitive gamers need to figure out that the constant grind of preparing for tournaments will destroy their player base. (As far as I am concerned this is a constant in life, right up there with the sun will always rise in the east, set in the west, death, and taxes.) As they destroy their player base they will get less practice and eventually they will kill their local meta. Good luck getting any practice with a dead meta. Good luck playing any tournaments when all of the local meta are dead. The aspiring competitive gamers need to be told that they will have their head handed back to them on a regular basis. They are going to lose, a lot, on a regular basis, until they can turn those losses into learning experiences. They need to figure out that they need to become good at the game in general before they can start becoming good at competitive tournament play. If they are going to play a competitive game and lose without having learned anything then they deserve the misery that comes with their misplaced grief. Tournament prep must be a minor side-show in your local meta or you will kill your local meta.The casual gamers need to realize that they are just fine, have their priorities properly aligned when it comes to this game, and stay away from the competitive gamers when those guys are being competitive only. By they way, you are not the first person to comment / raise concerns about this. here is what I have had to say in another recent thread: lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/81746/thread |
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184 
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Post by bward on Mar 4, 2018 18:31:17 GMT
Competitive players need to be a better ambassador to the game... plain and simple.
When I go to game night I try and bring 3 lists.. my intended steamroller/masters pair that I can play into another competitive player, and then 1 oddball list that I want to experiment with but am not really sure if it’s good or not.
It’s a win/win for me. I can play the competitive game with a similar player, and if I end up matched with someone newer its a chance for me to see how some theory machine can work in application. The oddball lists typically end up giving a much more pleasant play experience for the new player.. and they dont feel like they are just being crushed by some meta list.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Mar 4, 2018 20:07:28 GMT
Perhaps one simple change is that the hardcore tournament players, if they are bringing two lists, could resolve to play the worst matchup into the new players? Playing with this handicap can level the playing field a bit, and learning how to play bad matchups is better practice than spending a couple hours playing a game against a new player where your list is hugely advantaged.
Honestly... I think people who want to be truly competitive will play disadvantaged matchups and help new players learn. People who brutally curb-stomp new players with the latest OP hotness aren't competitive players, they're assclowns.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 4, 2018 20:27:49 GMT
The aspiring competitive gamers need to be told that they will have their head handed back to them on a regular basis. They are going to lose, a lot, on a regular basis, until they can turn those losses into learning experiences. They need to figure out that they need to become good at the game in general before they can start becoming good at competitive tournament play. If they are going to play a competitive game and lose without having learned anything then they deserve the misery that comes with their misplaced grief. More like "good luck for aspiring competitive gamers to be able to lose if other competitive gamers won't give them the time of day until they have a 75 point list that fits another net list they want to practice against." When dealing with attitudes like that, it is counter to the idea of play. Getting across the idea of losing in early games is not hard to get across. Getting across the idea that they aren't allowed to get on to the court until they have their team-appropriate jersey, shorts, and Michael Jordan shoes on, is hard to get across. It is that second attitude that the OP is trying to address, it seems. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 4, 2018 21:18:56 GMT
That's competitive game for you. More experienced person always beats less experienced. Aside from not using countermatchup lists in friendly games there's not much to be done here.
Have the decency to not delete a new person's infantry list in one turn with Nemo3, etc. At least until his first tournament.
If the person is stupid enough to insist playing countermatchup in a friendly game "to practice for tournament" (as if playing your good matchup is practice) you can just always refuse to play with him.
If new player is losing an even matchup a good thing for experienced player to do is point out why he lost, bad moves or critical die rolls that he didn't put enough resources into.
Allowing redoing things is also a good thing when you just see people positioning their caster to be guaranteed dead next turn or if they forget to contest objectives. It's way faster than starting a new game.
New players need to maintain the illusion of wmh being a game of skill and list building, and not smashing broken fotm spam lists into each other until they get nerfed and cycle repeats.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 4, 2018 21:35:03 GMT
The aspiring competitive gamers need to be told that they will have their head handed back to them on a regular basis. They are going to lose, a lot, on a regular basis, until they can turn those losses into learning experiences. They need to figure out that they need to become good at the game in general before they can start becoming good at competitive tournament play. If they are going to play a competitive game and lose without having learned anything then they deserve the misery that comes with their misplaced grief. More like "good luck for aspiring competitive gamers to be able to lose if other competitive gamers won't give them the time of day until they have a 75 point list that fits another net list they want to practice against." When dealing with attitudes like that, it is counter to the idea of play. Getting across the idea of losing in early games is not hard to get across. Getting across the idea that they aren't allowed to get on to the court until they have their team-appropriate jersey, shorts, and Michael Jordan shoes on, is hard to get across. It is that second attitude that the OP is trying to address, it seems. I don't see that in the original poster's posting, but I'm not going to argue against you about it either. What you mention sounds like yet even more areas that people need to stop being stupid about. |
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Post by killroundears on Mar 4, 2018 21:46:35 GMT
i like to play creative all-comers lists, not neccesarily in theme. That just test out unloved units and combos. Rather than bringing a tournament staple style kind of list.
it can be a breath of fresh air, even if the experience gap skews the win rate my way it feels fun to use units in new combos without seal clubbing newbies
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Post by elshinare on Mar 4, 2018 21:57:44 GMT
As a non-competitive player, that has restricted time limits and money to play, look at what people bring, if someone wants to play 35 and 50 point games, but everyone else wants 75 point tier 1 lists to play against, you will lose those players, t the same time, i do make concession to the fact that I cannot make other players play smaller lists all the time. I do have plans of buying into a bigger list, even semi-competitive. But, I suggest even asking people that have non-competitive lists if they would like to play your tier army against other players, walk them through the play of the list. I know a few people in my area that are fine with me proxying models (once I get bases and basic cutouts made).
Also be upfront if you are competitive, or trying to get ready for tournaments. Maybe invite them along to one and let the person see what it is like. they may become motivated to buy into a tier list. But, remember, everyone has different reasons for getting into the game. Me it was the low model count compared to Warhammer and that I bicycle and bus everywhere, and i liked the models in Circle of Orboros over other games models. But also if people start playing less, ask why, see if it's a reason with other players or if it is the competitive nature. See if there are reasons that can be fixed between players.
Mind you, we all want our metas to be lively and grow, but maybe not in the same ways.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 4, 2018 22:08:03 GMT
The easiest solution is to near constantly have a journeyman league going. Experienced players with a significant collection can put together journeyman appropriate lists and when facing the new players use those instead.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 5, 2018 5:20:52 GMT
More like "good luck for aspiring competitive gamers to be able to lose if other competitive gamers won't give them the time of day until they have a 75 point list that fits another net list they want to practice against." When dealing with attitudes like that, it is counter to the idea of play. Getting across the idea of losing in early games is not hard to get across. Getting across the idea that they aren't allowed to get on to the court until they have their team-appropriate jersey, shorts, and Michael Jordan shoes on, is hard to get across. It is that second attitude that the OP is trying to address, it seems. I don't see that in the original poster's posting, but I'm not going to argue against you about it either. What you mention sounds like yet even more areas that people need to stop being stupid about. Sorry, wasn't necessarily trying to be argumentative, but just presenting some experience that I've had in a similar atmosphere, and that leaves a bit of a raw feeling, even after all this time. It just happened that the times I could make it to my old LGS usually landed on "competitive night", and my choices (due to collection size) was either build my 40K models, paint models, talk about the games, or maybe get a small 40K game in (though very few people brought 40K in on WM/H night, so that usually translated to hobby or bull session). None of the WM/H players on those nights would even consider a battlebox game to help me get used to the basics. It was (Mk 2) 50 pt Steamroller or nothing. |
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Mar 5, 2018 5:37:04 GMT
None of the WM/H players on those nights would even consider a battlebox game to help me get used to the basics. It was (Mk 2) 50 pt Steamroller or nothing. You need to find players who aren't jerkasses. These are the kind of people who drive new players, hobby gamers, casual gamers, etc. away from the game, then blame PP for their meta dying. If it weren't for the fact that this is bad for people like you and bad for PP, I would say they deserve to have their meta wither and die around them then get their faces kicked in at major tournaments because they don't have anyone to practice with. |
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