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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 14:43:56 GMT
As with beasts, depends on the imprint. You have to factor in high fury and high initials compared to a hard cap of 3 focus, with usually 6 or 7 to split between all of the jacks and caster. And yet all of the Warmachine factions have access to Empower. The Jacks have less attacks, but they also hit harder, are cheaper and have more boxes. Also, I will reiterate, power up. Taking more jacks gives you an increase in available focus, taking more beasts does not increase your fury capacities. Really getting sick of people looking back at Mk2 for comparison between jacks and beasts, and claiming that because jacks weren't good then, jacks and beasts must be on equal footing now. In the switch to Mk3, Jacks: - got cheaper on average - in many cases got stat boosts - got power up While Beasts: - did NOT decrease in points, in most cases - had their animi nerfed/reduced in utility - had their fury support reduced in effectiveness The pendulum swung waaaaay too far, and the reason you're still seeing beasts at tournaments is because a) many hordes factions have no other way of cracking armor, and b) if everything is overcosted, you still have to take SOMETHING to compete with.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 7:12:28 GMT
There are plenty of bad animi on good models. Then take the good models? Jesus, this is freaking list building 101. If you are a beast which has good rules and a good animus. Awesome. Take the cool beast. If you are a good beast with a bad animus, well thats fine. You can take a good beast. If you are a bad beast with a bad animus then noone will take you. No loss. The only real issue is when you have a bad beast with a good animus, like the seraph who is only OK but who's animus is freaking incredible, that you might have problems with whether its worth taking. It becomes dependent on list. Or, y'know, when an otherwise decent beast is overcosted by two points because it gets the 'benefit' of an animus. Or when the entire faction is balanced around your having access to one of the good animi, but you get no points reduction for the fact that you have to find a way to include it in every list? Rage, Rush, Primal...all of the beasts in their respective factions are stat'ed around having access to those buffs every game, making them a tax WM does not need to pay for their much better base stats. Or when a good animus is on a beast that has a large portion of it's value tied up in it's melee stats, but you can't risk losing the beast for fear of losing access to it's animus, thus neutering it's combat potential? Or how about the fact that EVERY beast pays the premium for having an animus, but the player gets diminishing returns for taking multiples of the same beast? Take 10 Marauders, and you get 10 extra focus. Take 8 Satyrs, and you have access to 1 animus (and you probably can't even run all of them without risking frenzy.)
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 5:46:29 GMT
I'd take the shit out of a jack that gave +2 spd and pathfinder or blessed and magic, or +3 str to other jacks, or a 2" place. That would be freaking awesome. So basically only the rare non-SELF animi? (And Slipstream which is only technically SELF)If it was up to me, every main combat heavy and (few of the lights) would have MAT 7. Yes please give me MAT 7 Carniveans and Angelii. The perspective of Warmachine players everywhere. How about if all of your jacks went up 2 points, but gained a randomly determined imprint, ranging from potentially useful to utterly useless? Would you still be so enthusiastic about it then?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 7, 2017 0:43:31 GMT
The Kodiak and Marauder (especially the marauder) take offense to that claim. I would advocate point increases to the main offenders (and point decreases for the underused jacks) before seeing them nerf the Mat of Khador jacks. As every circle player knows, Mat 6 lets you down waaaaay too often to built your battle plan around.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 6, 2017 20:59:01 GMT
1. As a Circle player, it's a strange paradigm, because if I'm running hot, I tend to use primal on one of my beasts, in order to ameliorate the fury burden. There are downsides to that, in that if the beast isn't engaging anything important, the opponent can just ignore it, but I think I've had to take frenzy CHECKS all of once in all of Mk3. But I also tend not to run so many beasts that I'm risking frenzy on a turn-by-turn basis (not hard, when the absolute highest number of heavies I can run is 5, and usually it's 4.) However, something gets primalled almost every game I play, and if it survives, it frenzies.
1a. I primal for attrition/fury management purposes about as often as I do to go for assassination. against competent opponents, the the beast tends to get ignored if possible (Stalkers are the best way to avoid this.) It rarely puts me enough up on attrition to win straight out, unless of course it's an assassination run.
2. My beasts die if they get hit, so they aren't often left alive with crippled aspects. On the rare occasions that they are, it bears mention that the 1-2 fury cost to heal a crippled beast is non-negligible, especially given the relatively lower fury values of Hordes Warlocks.
3. My tiers:
Tier 1: Khador, Cygnar Tier 2: Circle (top 10-15% of the faction only); Cryx (played well); Retribution; Skorne Tier 3: Legion, Protectorate, Minions Tier 4: Trolls
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 6, 2017 5:37:28 GMT
Eye of truth is also 20 points. A naga is nowhere near that expensive. ..... i hope Well of course not, it's a light beast. A Pureblood Warpwolf, however, is 17 points. It's also P+S 18 vs. P+S 16, doesn't have to use resources to provide it's aura (to multiple targets, no less) is 21 ARM vs 17, and has Oracular Vision and Ashen Veil. While we're on the topic of self vs. targetted animi, it's important to remember that casting an animus on a beast with your warlock has a fury cost associated with it, just like allocating focus to a warjack. just because the cost is displaced to the warlock doesn't mean it's free, and the added flexibility is balanced out by the fact that the animus is lost if the beast dies.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 5, 2017 3:54:40 GMT
It can be shaken, and if it is not, the condition expires after one round. I don't believe there are ANY conditions in WMH that stick until a model is dead, unless we're talking about destroyed systems.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 19:06:25 GMT
Yeah, the whole thing with the gun carriage's role bothered me as well. It did, but like I keep mentioning it's the visuals that bug me. Even TANKS don't ram targets (Again I got banned for saying that for a month on CID). The first version is a bit too much like a worse version of Kharchevs SPELLS as a result. I get what you're going for though. With the second one, Its a good idea but jacks with ROF 2 or so are gonna hate it which I think might be a problem. Or something. Maybe even Keep siege weapon, but Up it by 2 Points and give it grand slam? I wouldn't mind. I mean, option 1 is still in tandem with the +3 ARM part of the feat, so it shouldn't be too weak. I also don't know that counterblast is worse than countercharge - it denies a much larger area of the field, and it can't be turned off by engaging the model with countercharge. Why do jacks with ROF 2 hate momentum? either they're knocking down their target to hit it more easily with the second shot, knocking down multiple targets, or increasing their output with slam collaterals. The only time it really hurts is if you're going for an assassination on a caster that's barely in range, doesn't have anything behind them to stop the slam, and is small/medium base...I wasn't really thinking of this as an assassination feat anyways, more of an attrition/control feat that CAN help with assassination.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 18:41:48 GMT
tanks are known for their all-terrain capabilities, not so much their lightning-fast speed. Holy booping hell it all makes sense now. Every one of PPs Tanks all go lightning fast and want to get into melee....Just.Frack. This change would never happen because "Man you wouldn't want to get caught under the treads of a tank!" Honestly with Malakov 2 being speedy, I wouldn't mind Harkevich losing that binary niche, and having much improved ranged capabilities. It would represent tanks much better: Hard to destroy, slow, and shooty until they crush you underfoot. Yeah, the whole thing with the gun carriage's role bothered me as well. How does this sound (just spitballing here, don't crucify me): -exchanges Field Marshal (reposition 3") for Field Marshal (pathfinder) -exchanges Mobility for Guided Fire -Remove the free charges/slams/assault from his feat, and replace with one of the following: - Warjacks in this models' battlegroup gain counterblast for one round. Warjacks in Harkevich's battlegroup gain gunfighter for one round. - Ranged Weapons belonging to warjacks in this models' battlegroup gain momentum for one round
Either option would give him the capacity for more of a controlling playstyle on feat turn, either really punishing an enemy that's trying to skirt the edges of his threat ranges and not engage while the armor buff is up (option 1) or give him the ability to control the enemy list by knocking them down/slamming them around with ranged attacks from a large ranged battlegroup. ***Also, increase the marauder's point cost by 1, and/or remove siege weapon, while we're making changes. Please.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 16:57:14 GMT
I have to say, Escort and Iron Sentinel is dirty. Having said that, this could be a good change, as it would decrease his ability to absolutely monopolize the board with zippy cheap khador jacks, make him actually play like terrain is a thing that exists, while still preserving the repositioning utility from the added speed. That being said, I do think it's a sidegrade rather than a downgrade, since it's an upkeep, not a 3-cost spell he has to recast every turn. Hes not supposed to be a "Gunline" caster but a TANK Caster. A Big part of tanks is the ability to navigate terrain. BUT, how about stripping away his 3+ arm part of the feat, and upping his ranged capabilities? Isn't a big part of 'tanks' being hard to destroy, too? regardless, that'd be fine. Or alternatively, change something else and give him easy rider - tanks are known for their all-terrain capabilities, not so much their lightning-fast speed.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 16:52:51 GMT
I'm not arguing one way or the other, but are there any other powerful control feats in the game that aren't shakable since knockdown, blind, stationary, and shadow bind are able to be shaked? Denny 1 I would imagine would be the closest? Off the top of my head, there's Grimm1, Denny1, Magnus2, and Grundback. There are plenty of feats that make your next turn rough. Sevvy1, Ashlynn, Doomy3, Stryker1 and such all limit your options during the next turn. Haley2 is just really blatent about it. Her feat just cuts out movement or action. How about this as a change: during her feat, models who give up movement can still change facing. That would fix the problem that gets the most complaints. I'd prefer to test the 'make it shakeable' change first, but this could work if that ends up being too much.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 16:51:40 GMT
You are taking statements that I am using to generalise things and using them as if I were citing them as specific examples. This is wrong on your part. 1. You can say all of Rahns strengths revolve around a single point but those equally apply to Haley while you also don't cite Force Hammer (entirely able to be used on your own models and frequently done so). Haley is reduced to TA (single cast only) and friendly TK's in those matchups. The rest of the army doesn't matter to this comparison, if Rahn brought an army of Battle Mages then yes his army is disproportionately weak to anti magic just as bringing Storm Striders is useless vs Storm Division. You aren't arguing fairly, imo, because you are including more elements into the discussion that aren't relevant and making out that Haley gets things easier than other casters without proving that fact as well as ignoring important pieces of evidence. 2. Nemo 3 is also hardly an autoloss for Rahn. Additional die to hit and damage is very good against almost everything that Nemo brings (especially Nemo himself). Again you are ignoring evidence in order to try and make your position better. Bad form. 3. I think you don't get how awsome Sorscha is . As someone who ran Sorscha pretty much strictly as my primary caster through all of mk 2 and found her to be buffed in Mk 3, the idea that she isn't being raved about in the Khador world currently is laughable to me. Her game into jack/beast heavy is fine because Stationary provides amazing benefits on the turn you pop the feat (unlike Temporal shift) and gives you an amazing vector at killing casters/support/ pushing heavies into enemy jacks faces who are playing a focus down this turn. Sorsha has to come further forwards, but has the means to do so (def 20 casually while being in the open with Wind Rush and Fog of War, as well as more armour than Haley and more boxes), but yes there is a weakness there to being knocked down, but you'd be surprised with how safe Sorscha can be, especially in Winter Guard command. Time bomb is a terrible spell, as you said before you don't play haley so you aren't talking from experience, but Time Bomb is the same cost as Signs and Portents. Its not a good spell at all. Meanwhile, for 1 cost LESS than Time Bomb we have Freezing Grip, an utterly amazing spell which can ruin plenty of days. For the same cost of Time bomb there is Tempest, which is a fantastic game ender and keeps up pressure even if you use your feat. Sorschas spell list is amazing, it is really strong. That isn't to say Haley's isn't as well, but both have amazing spells and the capacity to cast them. Calling them "a couple of nukes" really misses the point entirely. Have you played pSorscha or seen a great player use her? Without a doubt I think she is at the *very least* top 3 of Khador casters right now. 4. Hurricane is a better answer, but you are missing my point. I am saying that Haley has counterplay, she has answers. So if she has answers, her spells aren't just better than others, she has weaknesses and there are casters who can match and exceed her in many niches...then why is she overpowered? Why nerf her? Why nerf Haley and not other casters who do similar things (or have similar outputs). I just don't see the reason to nerf a single caster out of many when every single fix proposes either: 1. removing key aspects from her and rendering her boring or obsolete. 2. Removing things that they claim are overpowered which exist elsewhere in other factions without apparently being OP. 1. It's not bad form to consider casters in light of the models they are most commonly taken with. Rahn almost always plays with battlemages - it's his whole thing, tuning up magic attacks, etc, and I've never seen him played without 1, usually 2 units of them. Mostly recently, he's in Forges more often than not, but that's still up for debate, so I'm not considering the theme as part of his kit. Similarly, you'll notice that I'm considering Haley are having the squire, because she is virtually never played without it. It's perfectly reasonable to use the fact that Rahn's army doubles down on his strengths, and also exacerbates his weaknesses, making counters to him more devastating. Haley2 doesn't have to commit to a specific, counterable, part of her kit in the same way. As to Force Hammer, which you're so enthralled with...it's a good spell, it rarely solves the magic immunity issue because slamming one of your own models only helps against 1 type of magic immunity - sacred/spell ward. It does nothing against lamentation, bestial, or any other area-denial antimagic. 2. auto-loss may be overstating it, but it's damn close to it. Magnetic field turns off nearly ALL of Rahn's tricks, and Nemo3 can attrition far more effectively than Rahn can, while electro-leaps/lightning generator bypasses the force barrier Rahn relies on to keep his stuff alive against range. Boosted POW 10's don't take down arcane shielded storm lances effectively, if Nemo3 is running a Colossal, that's another thing Rahn doesn't like to see, and magnetic field pretty much takes assassination off the table against a competent player. It's by no means a good matchup. 3. I didn't say Sorscha was bad, I disagee that she's a top 3 Khador caster - if she was, we would be seeing her more in tournaments. As tapecrawler has mentioned, she has to make some very tough decisions about her focus usage from turn to turn, her spell list is nowhere near as good as Haley2's, and her feat's range covers a much smaller area, requiring her to get closer to the front lines, and is shakeable. All of these combine to make her a less threatening package than Haley2. 4. The point was a general point that Karchev's countercharge poses problems for everyone, not just Haley2. She's not unusually threatened by it, in a way other caster's aren't, and she has more tools to mitigate it than many do. In addition, single casters that have she has less than optimal (it's not bad) matchups against isn't a counterpoint to her being OP - she's not really weak to anything generally, there's just a few casters that give her less of an easy game than others. As to my suggestions: 1. really? making her feat shakeable makes her 'boring or obsolete?' If she doesn't see play at that point, it's a testament to the power level of Cygnar's top-tier casters (incidentally, I'm still trying to make up my mind on whether Nemo3 is OP, or just the Storm Lances) not to Haley being a weak caster. Same for swapping TK for another less powerful (but still versatile) spell. She's strong enough that neither would 'obsolete her' and she'd only be 'boring' if the only thing that excites you about a caster is having a favorable matchup into 70% of the game. 2. As mentioned, the issue isn't that these elements aren't present in other casters. It's the combination of those elements in Haley2 that makes them oppressive, and something has to give.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 7:10:23 GMT
...because a caster's power level is an aggregate of their spells, feat, abilities, and stats, in addition to how well those elements come together on the table, and the availability of counterplay? This is basic stuff. TK is a strong spell. It's arguably the best spell in the game, and PROBABLY the best non-signature spell. There's a reason TK casters consistently rank among the best in their factions. Of itself, however, it does not make a caster overpowered. Slap TK on Kaya1, and I probably still wouldn't play her (though she'd actually be worth a look at that point.) Slap it on Wurmwood and it would be broken as all get out. Rahn and Krueger2 are not broken either because the other elements of their kit do not make them overpowered, and/or because of the number of bad matchups they have/ability for them to be countered. Krueger's spell list and feat has nowhere near the control/tempo potential of Haley2. Rahn's spell list and feat make him a rather impressive control caster, who can assassinate from a million miles away with unpredictable angles, but he has serious bad matchups against any kind of anti-magic tech (psychic vampire wrecks him hard,) any kind of anti-push tech (Nemo3) or any caster that can out-attrition him while keeping themselves safe (any warlock with access to earth's blessing, any caster with inviolable resolve.) Neither of them have the combination of attrition, control, scenario, and assassination potential that Haley2 does, all the while having very few truly bad matchups. As someone who says that you don't play Haley 2 I have to take your analysis on what she can do with a large grain of salt. But as someone who actually plays her I think you seem to be missing the limitations to Haley's game that aren't so present in other casters. Rahn is capable of doing everything Haley can with TK and far much more. He is able to direct damage far more and in general is harder to kill than she is (being that he has one of her spells as a passive ability), compare Time Bomb (a mostly useless spell now) with Force Hammer (an exceptional spell) and you could at least surmise that not everything is so black and white as Haley being better than Rahn because of the rest of her kit because I would argue that most of the rest of her kit doesn't seem to be as good as Rahn's. So why is she better then? Hard to say, imo. Her feat is a powerful control feat but trades raw control power with range (compare what Haley 2 does to an army with Sorscha 1 and you'll quickly learn to love how Defence 5 and no counter-charging or other abilities can be with Sorscha 1, but not with Haley 2. Haley 2's matchup against Karchev is really shaky because she can't engage him easily without him counter charging heavies into melee, nullifying her feat for example. I'm curious why Rahn is harmed by anti-magic tech and yet Haley isn't. He still can force hammer models into immune to magical models, TK his own models at them, TK enemy models out of the way, etc etc. Nemo 3 can be as bad for Haley as he can for Rahn especially because Nemo 3 is immune to electricity (as can his whole army) essentially locking haley out of that matchup with a lot of common pieces. So why does Rahn get the luxury in this argument to say that he has weaknesses, while Haley doesn't? Seems a little one sided to me. I have a couple of counterpoints to what you're saying: 1. I think you're overlooking the fact that all of Rahn's strengths revolve around a single point - being able to move the enemy around in order to control the match. That means that his bad matchups are more widespread, and more crippling. I mentioned Psychic Vampire, but there's a whole host of area-denial spells that prevent or limit casting - lamentation, for instance, bestial, etc.) If Haley2's spells get turned off, she's can still buff her army extremely effectively - all she really loses out on is time bomb and offensive TKs, which is good, but not game-breaking. Rahn loses practically all of his output in these matchups, and furthermore, his most common army composition (battlemages, spellcasting models) are rendered useless by it. Dropping Rahn into a matchup with strong anti-magic is extremely unfavorable, while for Haley, she just loses a piece or two from her toolkit. Also, in addition to Rahn's weakness to anti-magic, he's weak against anything that denies pushes or pulls. Inviolable resolve, earth's blessing, anything that turns off his movement game is the bane of his existence, since not only he, but his entire army, rely on being able to push/pull enemy models. Even a single enemy heavy that can't be pushed is something he doesn't want to see across the table, and if the caster can't be pushed/pulled, Rahn has no real tools that let him get up on attrition (unlike Haley, who gets (mostly) a whole free turn to do what she likes to the opposing army. Rahn also has counterplay, in that if you get in his face and either kill his battlemages or force him to feat defensively, his ability to assassinate goes way, way down. None of that is really true of Haley - you can mitigate what she does to you on feat turn (in list building, more than in play) but on a turn by turn basis, she has very strong tools as well. 2. As to having bad matchups against specific casters...it's not really relevant to what I'm saying - Rahn has bad matchups against tech that's available (in one form or another) to every faction in the game. Haley has shaky matchups into a couple of casters (and still has game into them.) Nemo3 is hardly an auto-loss for Haley - she still has the rest of her toolbox, and frankly 'my stormlances are bad into his stormlances' isn't a great argument for balance on either side. By contrast, Nemo is very close to an auto-loss for Rahn, at least as he's typically built. 3. I think you're overselling Sorscha's feat on the basis of one matchup you're finding problematic. Her game into jack/beast heavy lists isn't great, the LOS restriction is harsh (and unlike Haley with TK, she has no real way around it in her kit, beyond 'kill whatever is blocking LOS.' Sorscha also has to come further forwards to catch enemies in her feat (Focus 6 vs. Focus 8 with Squire) which makes her much easier to assassinate, especially because the feat is shakeable. Finally, notice that Sorscha's spell list is literally nowhere near as good as Haley2's. She gets boundless charge (nice) Fog of War (okay) and a couple of nukes. Not a patch on TK, Temporal acceleration, Time bomb (which isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be) Domination, and Force Field. I will reiterate, the fact that Haley2 has a ball-busting feat isn't what makes her OP. It's the fact that she has a ball-busting feat, a good field marshal, and a bonkers spell list that makes Haley OP. 4. As to Karchev, having to figure out the countercharge puzzle isn't a weakness unique to Haley2. It's worse against her, because it makes her feat harder to use against her, but anyone wanting to engage Karchev's jacks has to deal with countercharge. In fact, Haley has one of the best ways to deal with countercharge, sinceshe has TK to clear potential counterchargers/make them force the other way. It's still a hard matchup, because she doesn't do a GREAT job of cracking armor, but it's not a terrible matchup in the same way most other casters have bad matchups.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 6:05:50 GMT
I never said It was fine (Nor from what I understand is she forced). Something being so good you have to build against it IS bad. You could not be more wrong if you tried. You have to build your lists against things all the time. To fight haley you need guns (there are other ways that one is just her most pronounced weakness) is that so different than needing high value attacks to fight Vyros2? Oh no you need more than pow 10's to kill vyros' stuff, he must be overpowered as well. That really irks me as I was super stoked about my long gunner sentinel army. God forbid you ever play against a unit of black banes you might have to include a magic attack of some sort, the horror. It isn't like haley is asking you for something extreme just some method of feasibly threatening haley any playable two list pair should be able to easily do so. If you actually think you can just bring whatever, flop it on the table and expect to have the tools necessary to win every matchup you are going to be sorely disappointed. With as many models there are in the game they cannot and will not ever be able to do that. List building is a binary process, "Did you bring the tools necessary to feasibly mitigate what they want to do? Yes or no" Yes? Cool, you try and use the tools important to the match to succeed they do the same. No? well you didn't bring the tools necessary to win the fight, that was a poor choice. You either need to better prepare for the matchup or try and dodge. The problem arises when a caster has matchups they are very strong into, but no matchups they are very weak into. Dies to guns is not a weakness unique to Haley2, and it's one she can mitigate with army building and smart play, not to mention her kit gives her very good options for negating guns on the one turn she has to come forward.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 4, 2017 5:49:09 GMT
The real argument is that if TK is so powerful then why is it too powerful on Haley 2 and not on Rahn or Krueger? ...because a caster's power level is an aggregate of their spells, feat, abilities, and stats, in addition to how well those elements come together on the table, and the availability of counterplay? This is basic stuff. TK is a strong spell. It's arguably the best spell in the game, and PROBABLY the best non-signature spell. There's a reason TK casters consistently rank among the best in their factions. Of itself, however, it does not make a caster overpowered. Slap TK on Kaya1, and I probably still wouldn't play her (though she'd actually be worth a look at that point.) Slap it on Wurmwood and it would be broken as all get out. Rahn and Krueger2 are not broken either because the other elements of their kit do not make them overpowered, and/or because of the number of bad matchups they have/ability for them to be countered. Krueger's spell list and feat has nowhere near the control/tempo potential of Haley2. Rahn's spell list and feat make him a rather impressive control caster, who can assassinate from a million miles away with unpredictable angles, but he has serious bad matchups against any kind of anti-magic tech (psychic vampire wrecks him hard,) any kind of anti-push tech (Nemo3) or any caster that can out-attrition him while keeping themselves safe (any warlock with access to earth's blessing, any caster with inviolable resolve.) Neither of them have the combination of attrition, control, scenario, and assassination potential that Haley2 does, all the while having very few truly bad matchups.
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