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Post by redbaron89 on May 3, 2017 6:07:31 GMT
At a glance, I miss the boosting mechanic and think its a very important aspect of "most" competitive battle engines. The extra boxes are definatly a step in the right direction for 17 points! The new throne definately shreds med defense med armor infantry. The freezer mechanic im not entirely sold on. Ideally, It should count towards free models on oracles theme. My new throne should get here on amazon on thursday for playtesting.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 3, 2017 7:34:48 GMT
I look at the CID throne as a giant hellmouth, in that it creates favorable, controllable threat ranges that our opponent doesnt want to walk into that we can plan around. At worst, our opponent trades some buffed up cheap heavy for the throne and we kill it next turn. Best case scenario, a buffed throne takes 2-3 heavies to kill and now we have some stationary targets in our threats. It's very expensive, but the fact that it can kill so much more than a hellmouth is nice. I can't honestly imagine it taking 2-3 heavies on. Again, it only has a sliver more durability than a normal juggernaut.
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Post by josephkerr on May 3, 2017 7:40:10 GMT
I look at the CID throne as a giant hellmouth, in that it creates favorable, controllable threat ranges that our opponent doesnt want to walk into that we can plan around. At worst, our opponent trades some buffed up cheap heavy for the throne and we kill it next turn. Best case scenario, a buffed throne takes 2-3 heavies to kill and now we have some stationary targets in our threats. It's very expensive, but the fact that it can kill so much more than a hellmouth is nice. I can't honestly imagine it taking 2-3 heavies on. Again, it only has a sliver more durability than a normal juggernaut. I did say buffed. At arm 22 and 36 boxes, it could theoretically survive 2 Ironclads with 1 box left. All it takes is being able to survive 1 heavy to rope in the second.
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Post by Ecalsneerg on May 3, 2017 7:44:55 GMT
Do you guys think it has any potential simply as a "good enough" board control piece for warlocks (Vayl2 is the big example) who want a Hellmouth but would also like to run Oracles?
Obviously the big downside to that is the Throne costs 3 Hellmouths and doesn't push, only discourages and possible Freezes. But you can arc off it too, and it's better at RFP.
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Post by josephkerr on May 3, 2017 7:52:53 GMT
It's infantry clearing potential, even at mat 7 and MA 7, gives it a good place in oracles with casters who can buff it and don't want to make battlegroup expenditure's specifically to help against 2+ units. It's feast or famine, but the potential for 3 melee attacks proccing 3 more sprays/spine bursts makes it strong competition with hex hunters and a free bayal for infantry clearing, especially if ud like some other free solo instead of Bayal.
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Post by copperflame on May 3, 2017 13:56:58 GMT
I just found a home for my Hex Hunters with Oracles... free Bayal + free Appreciation finally feels like they are worth it (especially with Thag1 for me). Outside of that, I stopped playing them in Mk3 for the most part.
I don't know if enough of the CID would come together and say 'we don't want another infantry answer' for PP to take the throne back to the drawing board. I think I saw some influential players already say they like it.
Maybe that means that I should play it more as is... or that I can just stave that $$$ and buy something else instead.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 3, 2017 15:26:41 GMT
Battle reports I'm seeing people are saying that the throne has too much power. Being able to clear infantry and, with a dmg buff, really tear up heavys it's good. On top of that if you don't one round it you're stationary next turn, and it gets to heal off of killing, it seems people think that's too good. I think at the least it will get a point cost increase.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 3, 2017 15:34:08 GMT
I can't honestly imagine it taking 2-3 heavies on. Again, it only has a sliver more durability than a normal juggernaut. I did say buffed. At arm 22 and 36 boxes, it could theoretically survive 2 Ironclads with 1 box left. All it takes is being able to survive 1 heavy to rope in the second. It's probably worth running the numbers to see what can realisticslly threaten it on average rolls. Damage buffs tend to be very prevalent either way. This might only be a reliable strategy in very specific matchups.
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Post by Swampmist on May 3, 2017 15:49:46 GMT
Battle reports I'm seeing people are saying that the throne has too much power. Being able to clear infantry and, with a dmg buff, really tear up heavys it's good. On top of that if you don't one round it you're stationary next turn, and it gets to heal off of killing, it seems people think that's too good. I think at the least it will get a point cost increase. I just looked through the battle report section on the CID forums; two said that the throne was good under it's best casters (Rhyas when it lived the dream and spiked hit to kill infantry with all 4 attacks and Thags1 who gives it both a tank buff and a damage buff,) and the third was a khador player who expected it to die like a wet tissue (like it did previously) and fed it a full unit of uhlans, a unit it happens to be very good at killing. None of this screams OP to me; if anything it means that the throne is at least viable under a few casters (thags1 being the probable best case with rhyas a fairly close second.)
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Post by socialirregular on May 3, 2017 16:08:22 GMT
Battle reports I'm seeing people are saying that the throne has too much power. Being able to clear infantry and, with a dmg buff, really tear up heavys it's good. On top of that if you don't one round it you're stationary next turn, and it gets to heal off of killing, it seems people think that's too good. I think at the least it will get a point cost increase. I just looked through the battle report section on the CID forums; two said that the throne was good under it's best casters (Rhyas when it lived the dream and spiked hit to kill infantry with all 4 attacks and Thags1 who gives it both a tank buff and a damage buff,) and the third was a khador player who expected it to die like a wet tissue (like it did previously) and fed it a full unit of uhlans, a unit it happens to be very good at killing. None of this screams OP to me; if anything it means that the throne is at least viable under a few casters (thags1 being the probable best case with rhyas a fairly close second.) Yeah that Khador one kinda irked me. It was literally someone screaming "overpowered" when they played into it in one of the worst possible ways. All I could think of after reading that post - in a sarcastic tone - was "get gud".
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Post by Swampmist on May 3, 2017 16:12:06 GMT
I just looked through the battle report section on the CID forums; two said that the throne was good under it's best casters (Rhyas when it lived the dream and spiked hit to kill infantry with all 4 attacks and Thags1 who gives it both a tank buff and a damage buff,) and the third was a khador player who expected it to die like a wet tissue (like it did previously) and fed it a full unit of uhlans, a unit it happens to be very good at killing. None of this screams OP to me; if anything it means that the throne is at least viable under a few casters (thags1 being the probable best case with rhyas a fairly close second.) Yeah that Khador one kinda irked me. It was literally someone screaming "overpowered" when they played into it in one of the worst possible ways. All I could think of after reading that post - in a sarcastic tone - was "get gud". It's less "get gud," and more "Don't forget that the battle engines were buffed to not suck at surviving."
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 3, 2017 16:52:42 GMT
Yeah that Khador one kinda irked me. It was literally someone screaming "overpowered" when they played into it in one of the worst possible ways. All I could think of after reading that post - in a sarcastic tone - was "get gud". It's less "get gud," and more "Don't forget that the battle engines were buffed to not suck at surviving." I may or may not have bitten the bullet and responded to that one... Overall, I think the Throne is playable now in specific circumstances, but it's not particularly exciting or enticing for the most part. What I really want to see out of it is more versatility so that I can have it in a list without playing list-chicken in every pairing matchup; and that basically means that it needs some means to put out boostable attacks. It could also be spun up as a better support piece, as it does almost nothing in that regard currently, but I think that'd require a more significant overhaul. I'd also be fine with it costing more if it did more, ftr.
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Post by socialirregular on May 3, 2017 22:12:13 GMT
Updated OP to reflect week 2 changes. Notably: -Winter's Grip +Ice Cage +1 attack, also contributes to free points in Oracles. Seem like positive changes overall for the BE.
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Post by mantiszero on May 3, 2017 23:25:26 GMT
Battle reports I'm seeing people are saying that the throne has too much power. Being able to clear infantry and, with a dmg buff, really tear up heavys it's good. On top of that if you don't one round it you're stationary next turn, and it gets to heal off of killing, it seems people think that's too good. I think at the least it will get a point cost increase. I just looked through the battle report section on the CID forums; two said that the throne was good under it's best casters (Rhyas when it lived the dream and spiked hit to kill infantry with all 4 attacks and Thags1 who gives it both a tank buff and a damage buff,) and the third was a khador player who expected it to die like a wet tissue (like it did previously) and fed it a full unit of uhlans, a unit it happens to be very good at killing. None of this screams OP to me; if anything it means that the throne is at least viable under a few casters (thags1 being the probable best case with rhyas a fairly close second.) I was the Legion player that the Khador player was referring to. Sadly, i still can't get into the cid forums but he left it on like 8 boxes after he charged in. I positioned it 12.5 inches away from the max Uhlan unit with stationary up and in a way that only allowed 4 Uhlans to charge and no chance for impact hits. I drunk mathed something like 4 Uhlans do 32 damage so it would survive, unless he cranked a roll. He ended up cranking the first damage roll but tanked on the last one so it ended up being below average for damage. The 4 charging models went stationary so i killed the ones in the "middle" first, to negate the armor bonus and ate the entire unit healing 8 points of damage from the 3 models it ate. It was pretty glorious, and about as good as it gets for the Throne but i think the stationary ability is a bit strong on a model with a huge base and a ton of boxes that can be buffed. I guess that is why they took it away.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on May 3, 2017 23:36:34 GMT
Updated OP to reflect week 2 changes. Notably: -Winter's Grip +Ice Cage +1 attack, also contributes to free points in Oracles. Seem like positive changes overall for the BE. The throne is now The Shard's best friend.
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