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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 27, 2017 20:19:58 GMT
Well based on the cid changes to banes, mechanithralls, and the new bane theme force we might need all the anti infantry we can get. I was not aware that was out. I am now quite concerned. Bane warriors costing the same as swordsmen is... *sigh*
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Post by Korianneder on Apr 27, 2017 20:37:37 GMT
Well based on the cid changes to banes, mechanithralls, and the new bane theme force we might need all the anti infantry we can get. I was not aware that was out. I am now quite concerned. Bane warriors costing the same as swordsmen is... *sigh* You also get def 12 mechanithrall units for 8 points.
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Post by RodimusPrime on Apr 27, 2017 21:12:45 GMT
Wraithbane, flare, telemetry, dragon's breath? Not to mention many other abilities that, while not strictly buffs, scream 'synergise me' rather than 'independence'. If anything, most things in Legion are too fragile to ever be independent.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 28, 2017 10:11:22 GMT
Thinking about it; I would like it if Freezer and one of the offensive spells were dropped for 2 other spells that helped/buffed our army. If it gained something like: Puppet Master, Wind Wall, Death Field, (larger form of) Blizzard, Spell Slave/Necromancy/Geomancy, Trembler, etc. Any of the spells like the above list in replacement would make the model much more interesting in my eye. But that's not the design direction of Legion. The philosophy of our models is independence. Excluding UAs we have 2 models that do anything for the rest of our army. Blackfrost shard and Sorc & Hellion. They are the only models that buff something outside of themselves. So it's almost impossible that we would ever have something like puppet master or the like. That's why we lost Tenacity and Spiny growth is self. To keep buffs contained. I'm not trying to put ideas down or be grumpy. But expectations and wishes are way out of scope for what Legion is designed to be. Every rule on a Legion model is specifically designed to give it the tools for its ONE job. Carniveans don't buff Shredders, it kills other heavies and tries to survive. Nothing we have is there to make anything else better. Now you're going to say "Warlords make swordsmen better." or the like for deathstalkers and War chieftan. Those are very minor in the scheme of things and only apply to a strict subset of models. Now, if the warlord gave everything in his cmd precision strike that would be different. Same with the BlightBringer, it's design was to be infantry support. It does that one job and very little else. How often do you pick the anti magic shot? Concealment is nice but the arm bonus is more often then not better. It does one job, it does it well, and then we move on. I can see this rolling over like the Neraph did. MK3 hit and the even people that played other factions complained about how bad the Neraph was. Now, the Neraph hasn't changed. but popular enough people play it and say its good and now some people own half a dozen of them. Nothing got "better" but personal biases. I don't think you know what Legion #designspace is. It sure as hell is not independence, or doing one job the model was designed for. Our beasts are lackluster for their points without caster support and we have tons of synergies to rely on. Telemetry, Shadowbind, Flare, Slipstream (!!), Wraithbane, BFS, Sorceress & Helion, Deathstalkers synergizing with Scouts, Assassins providing Stealth to all Grotesques (both existing and future), Spawning Vessel, Warlords with Swordsmen, Annyssa with Raptors, Chieftains boosting ogruns, 38 points of one huge Gargantuan which is mostly support and Hellmouth. What you're describing is not Legion in MK3, if ever. We need synergies to stay afloat and have many beasts only for buffs that they provide. We are Faction with bag of tricks. Specialization? Please reread our beasts cards. We are faction with the most shooting/meelee combos. Few examples: * Carnivean - meelee, assault 10'' spray * Angelius - meelee, but have 12'' handgun with crit fire, also anti-infantry with overtake (!!!) * Typhoon - 3 sprays, meelee * Ravagore - range with very good meelee. I could go on but you see the pattern. EVERYONE lost many animuses of RNG other than Self to make things easier to balance. The same reason most spells and abilities are Friendly Faction now. It was explicitly said by devs in old PP forums and insiders. You missed the mark on all accounts. Our Theme is not independence nor self sufficient, it's mobility tricks (both with our own and enemy models), which makes models like Throne extra clunky. They need to be extra clunky, or provide support. As for Neraph, it's resurgence is mostly Fyanna2 and Ravens/Oracles of War themes thing, as Whiskiey said. Also, many people said that Throne is "meh", no one said it can't be used (hell, you could use the old one too!), it's only you who claim it's broken good which is interesting to say the least.
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Post by snotling on Apr 28, 2017 11:47:00 GMT
Schooled
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 28, 2017 12:17:49 GMT
oh no some one quoted card rules at me. I am so teh schewled.
I specifically mentioned the synergy of the BFS and Blood seer. thanks for agreeing. Shadowbind and flare are not "synergy" (in my opinion) they are just a debuff.
Slipstream is also not synergy. the Firefly is an example of synergy. Taking a theme of a faction and giving a bonus that many non-similar model that can benefit from would be synergy. The Ravagores old animus could be called synergy since our model selection is saturated with ranged attacks.
Rat4 10" spray is not any kind of synergy nor does it make it good at another job. Ranged attacks are there to make our beasts able to ding up a target before committing. Not to be swiss army toolboxes. a pow 14 overtake is slightly a "toolbox" advantage. but it's a 17 point heavy that if you send into infantry; you don't make your points back, you don't use it's most important rule, and it dies to a stiff breeze. You don't throw an Archangel into infantry just to use it's animus. You don't throw Angelius into infantry just to use overtake.
And no duh UAs and command solos affect the unit they're part of, I mentioned that. Nice try though.
Finally, holy crap every warnoun gives bonuses to their army. that's they're purpose.
"you missed the mark on all accounts"
/offtopic /subject
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 28, 2017 13:58:45 GMT
At this point I don't think any arguments will reach you since you just make up your definitions. Fact of the matter is - all of your claims about Legion #designspace are incorrect. Moreso, I think that after more than 5 years of playing I can spot theorymachine without experience to back it up. So I believe we are done here Everyone can make their own mind on the subject after reading this. Just one pro-tip for you: sometimes you throw Angelius at infantry to kill few troops using overtake, because it's one of the reasons you've taken him - versatility 😊 Oh, and with Carnivean remember you can boost and aim, that 10'' spray killed tons of stuff for mee 😉
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Post by neutralyze on Apr 28, 2017 14:42:03 GMT
I played two games yesterday with the throne. Both lists has double throne and the warlocks were thags1 and saeryn.
The thags1 game the thrones ran the table being very strong and forced a lot of attacks to try and take down. It ended up killing models, using freezer and stationaring two jacks one game and 3 in saeryn1 game. With saeryn I was able to lock two jacks out until my canivean dealt with them both. With thags, after the jacks were stationary I was able to destroy those as well. In the thags game both thrones survived, in saeryn1 game only 1 did.
I feel freezer is still too good. The third ability could be a buff to the throne or to friendly models.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 28, 2017 15:04:33 GMT
I played two games yesterday with the throne. Both lists has double throne and the warlocks were thags1 and saeryn. The thags1 game the thrones ran the table being very strong and forced a lot of attacks to try and take down. It ended up killing models, using freezer and stationaring two jacks one game and 3 in saeryn1 game. With saeryn I was able to lock two jacks out until my canivean dealt with them both. With thags, after the jacks were stationary I was able to destroy those as well. In the thags game both thrones survived, in saeryn1 game only 1 did. I feel freezer is still too good. The third ability could be a buff to the throne or to friendly models. Can you tell us against what lists you've played them? Do you your lists as all-comers, or targted at specific matchups?
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Post by socialirregular on Apr 28, 2017 17:06:55 GMT
I played two games yesterday with the throne. Both lists has double throne and the warlocks were thags1 and saeryn. The thags1 game the thrones ran the table being very strong and forced a lot of attacks to try and take down. It ended up killing models, using freezer and stationaring two jacks one game and 3 in saeryn1 game. With saeryn I was able to lock two jacks out until my canivean dealt with them both. With thags, after the jacks were stationary I was able to destroy those as well. In the thags game both thrones survived, in saeryn1 game only 1 did. I feel freezer is still too good. The third ability could be a buff to the throne or to friendly models. Death Shroud. Now we build a tanky list with Legionarres and Thrones. Legion can gain some ground on the attrition front.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 28, 2017 17:40:52 GMT
I played two games yesterday with the throne. Both lists has double throne and the warlocks were thags1 and saeryn. The thags1 game the thrones ran the table being very strong and forced a lot of attacks to try and take down. It ended up killing models, using freezer and stationaring two jacks one game and 3 in saeryn1 game. With saeryn I was able to lock two jacks out until my canivean dealt with them both. With thags, after the jacks were stationary I was able to destroy those as well. In the thags game both thrones survived, in saeryn1 game only 1 did. I feel freezer is still too good. The third ability could be a buff to the throne or to friendly models. Death Shroud. Now we build a tanky list with Legionarres and Thrones. Legion can gain some ground on the attrition front. I don't think we'll get Death Shroud, ever.
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Post by neutralyze on Apr 28, 2017 17:47:00 GMT
I played two games yesterday with the throne. Both lists has double throne and the warlocks were thags1 and saeryn. The thags1 game the thrones ran the table being very strong and forced a lot of attacks to try and take down. It ended up killing models, using freezer and stationaring two jacks one game and 3 in saeryn1 game. With saeryn I was able to lock two jacks out until my canivean dealt with them both. With thags, after the jacks were stationary I was able to destroy those as well. In the thags game both thrones survived, in saeryn1 game only 1 did. I feel freezer is still too good. The third ability could be a buff to the throne or to friendly models. Can you tell us against what lists you've played them? Do you your lists as all-comers, or targted at specific matchups? Played into Kara Sloan with saeryn and convergence with thags1.
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Apr 28, 2017 18:31:12 GMT
I'd like it if also on killing you popped out an incubus or spell martyr.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 28, 2017 18:42:45 GMT
Death Shroud. Now we build a tanky list with Legionarres and Thrones. Legion can gain some ground on the attrition front. I don't think we'll get Death Shroud, ever. Death shroud has been on Thags1 since MK1? I actually think he was the first model to ever have it?!?!
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 28, 2017 18:45:57 GMT
I don't think we'll get Death Shroud, ever. Death shroud has been on Thags1 since MK1? I actually think he was the first model to ever have it?!?! Sorry, I was sleepy I meant Dark Shroud I somehow read it as if Throne would be able to give our models/units Dark Shroud. Trivia time: Death Shroud existed in MK1 on Thags, but as a spell (I've just checked in my Primal book to redeem myself ).
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