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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 27, 2017 12:34:45 GMT
You all always surprise me. I looked at the throne and thought it was down right broken good. Yet everyone is complaining it's been made worse and all doom and despair. The throne was originally meant to be an anti-infantry piece. It got better at that job, more durable, and it's self contained (no corpse token reliance). On average it can directly kill 10-12 dudes in a turn, up to a max of 15 with perfect d3 rolls. That's not using it's sprays, which could conceivable catch more. It's arm 20 with 36 boxes. That alone makes it worth most of the 17 points. Add to that it can heal itself. How is this bad?
You can say all day long that infantry doesn't exist anymore but that's a blatant exaggeration. Iron Fang, Idrians, Croes, Winterguard everything, Mechanithralls, dead Pirates, sentry stones, wolves of orboros, Stormlances, trenchers, all the troll things I don't recognize, Skorne swordsmen, Legion swordsmen, Raptors, Grotesques, the list goes on and on. People are playing infantry everywhere.
I personally am going to try it again with Vayl 1. Chiller on a unit of ambushing blight blades that run/charge to engage. Throne goes up and eats 3 dudes and drops spray templates over everything. Then move it back and the blight blades jam further with feat. Seems like a pretty crazy way of decimating a huge chunk of board.
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Post by snotling on Apr 27, 2017 12:40:22 GMT
One problem is, that it only kills max def13, arm16 dudes well, most relevant infantry has better def or arm. And it does not have eyeless sight.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 27, 2017 13:03:45 GMT
One problem is, that it only kills max def13, arm16 dudes well, most relevant infantry has better def or arm. And it does not have eyeless sight. We have mat fixers and damage buffs galore. Your comment is only valid in a vacuum where dice only ever roll 3.5s and thus never valid. Nothing outside of our beats and Lylyth have eyeless sight. The battle engine is not a beast, or else it would be called a gargantuan.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 27, 2017 13:17:22 GMT
Guys the throne is legit now. For reals. Give him an str or armor debuff and he hits hard. No, he is not legit and he won't hit hard. Even with Parasite it will be 3 Pow 19 damage rolls (if he hits all), only one boosted. It's nowhere near "hiting hard". I don't see using him ever, there are tons of frankly better options. The throne was originally meant to be an anti-infantry piece. It got better at that job, more durable, and it's self contained (no corpse token reliance). On average it can directly kill 10-12 dudes in a turn, up to a max of 15 with perfect d3 rolls. No, it doesn't. Realistically on average you will kill like 6 infantry, for mutliple reasons: - Mat 7 (a lot of high def infantry), and every meelee miss neuters you damage output - doesn't ignore tough (you have 33% chance that you meelee attacks won't triger a thing) - no one clumps their infantry in a way that would allow you to kill that many models. You are taking about full unit with UA! It's better, but not near as good as you've described. IMHO it's more on mediocre side, definitelly not broken good (fortunatelly).
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Post by DanX on Apr 27, 2017 13:28:44 GMT
You have to be amazingly lucky to hit with all 3 melee attacks. 2 seems more likely vs say Def13.
What you hit you probably kill PS16 chain weapon is great.
The spells then hit on 6's too - so 1.5 hits?1!!? And are power 10, so kill on 6s vs arm 15 say 2/3s. Doing D3+1 hits each spell. So approximately 3/2 X 2/3 x D3+1 = or D3+1 plus the 2 initial hits. So on average charging into 13/15 1 box infantry they would kill about 5 guys, and that's assuming it doesn't cast Winters Grasp. If you chance on to Def 13 arm 11 guy, then you'd kill 7 or 8 of them.
Its not bad into Men of war - charges in - killing one on 3 dice needing an 8 I think, then spells something (Winter's Grasp again?) then with its next two attacks kills another man of war - getting another spell (best used not on the men of war) might kill a solo or two if you get good rolls.
I'm not convinced its killing potential is very strong, its OK vs infantry probably a bit better than an angelus (who can kill 4+ a turn 13/15 guys), but its very tanky.
I think it could do with Reposition 3 and a way to cast spells when its stuck in melee with a jack it can't kill. Will try it and find out.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 27, 2017 13:30:08 GMT
I have to say I'm lukewarm on this change. Loosing it's boosting mechanic is rough no matter what the gains are. ARM20 with 36 boxes is great. If that was the only change I'd probably be happier. As is, I will try it but I'm not rushing out to buy one.
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Post by DanX on Apr 27, 2017 13:32:14 GMT
Guys the throne is legit now. For reals. Give him an str or armor debuff and he hits hard. No, he is not legit and he won't hit hard. Even with Parasite it will be 3 Pow 19 damage rolls (if he hits all), only one boosted. It's nowhere near "hiting hard". I don't see using him ever, there are tons of frankly better options. I'm thinking he might have wings into Infantry swarm in ADR. As at terrible example I can take out an anglius and my succusbus from Fyanna 2 and put in the Throne. Now in this case - Anglius under feat is probably way better, but I can see that not always being the case.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 27, 2017 13:35:27 GMT
No, he is not legit and he won't hit hard. Even with Parasite it will be 3 Pow 19 damage rolls (if he hits all), only one boosted. It's nowhere near "hiting hard". I don't see using him ever, there are tons of frankly better options. I'm thinking he might have wings into Infantry swarm in ADR. As at terrible example I can take out an anglius and my succusbus from Fyanna 2 and put in the Throne. Now in this case - Anglius under feat is probably way better, but I can see that not always being the case. Most infantry swarm have tough. Like Drudges swarm, or Irusk2, every Tollblods list ever, or just have Rhuphert. I don't see Throne killing the world against such lists, I would rather had pair of DeathStalkers.
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Post by Jabberwokk on Apr 27, 2017 14:08:10 GMT
Rhyas giving him an extra attack and a teleport to set up mass freezer in the middle of their army.
Proteus/Hellmouth drag shenanigans + Throne To maximize CC possibilities.
Vayl with Incite +thrown for +2/+2 to tentacles and spells.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 27, 2017 14:19:15 GMT
One problem is, that it only kills max def13, arm16 dudes well, most relevant infantry has better def or arm. And it does not have eyeless sight. is it rolling zero's on its damage die?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 27, 2017 14:32:19 GMT
One problem is, that it only kills max def13, arm16 dudes well, most relevant infantry has better def or arm. And it does not have eyeless sight. is it rolling zero's on its damage die? He's figuring average dice damage on the pow 10 from spine burst. Still, i can't see nearly guaranteeing a kill on 13/16 infantry models is bad... People still complaining that it's base stats aren't auto-hit, auto-kill and are STILL ignoring the dozen sources of accuracy and damage buffs we have boggle my mind. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it. You are dead set on hating it and nothing will sway you because you don't want to think differently. I'll play it, I'll have fun and that's all that matters. Eventually someone will put something together using the throne and it will become flavor of the month and everyone will wet themselves over it. Then it will die off and never be heard of again. Just like everything else.
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Post by snotling on Apr 27, 2017 14:32:26 GMT
One problem is, that it only kills max def13, arm16 dudes well, most relevant infantry has better def or arm. And it does not have eyeless sight. is it rolling zero's on its damage die? If you don't care about the spells, sure. Kill three dudes and hope for the best. Inf removal that can't deal well with stuff like satyxis raiders or sentinels is not really woth taking, at least for for me. If you can field stuff that can't in your local meta, more power to you. I'd love to play the awesome model, but outside of some rhyas fun lists, I sadly dont see it making an lists in its current state.
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Post by DanX on Apr 27, 2017 14:43:29 GMT
If it counted towards free things in Oracles I think it would get loads of play. With it not counting - its got to be worth 23 points of beasts - which is nearly 2 Nerpahs. I'm not sure its as good as 2 Nerpahs - but I plan on finding out.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 27, 2017 14:55:27 GMT
is it rolling zero's on its damage die? People still complaining that it's base stats aren't auto-hit, auto-kill and are STILL ignoring the dozen sources of accuracy and damage buffs we have boggle my mind. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it. You are dead set on hating it and nothing will sway you because you don't want to think differently. I'll play it, I'll have fun and that's all that matters. Yes, you play it, have fun with it and win some Steamroller Tournament with it. Show us the err of our ways. But you are missing the points other people stated. No one is hating it, more like you are infatuated with it claiming it's broken (I can put my money on it would not be nerfed in CID, rather will get some buffs). Also, you're only theorycrafting not taking into account real life experience that comes from playing 100+ games. Like that claim it can kill even 15 infantry on its own per turn. If you ever see it happen it means your oponent is completelly new, really bad or have very bad case of hangover. At least we all can agree that it's better than before. You think it's OP goodness, most of other people see it as "playable, but meh". No reason to get upset about it.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 15:24:31 GMT
I don't think anyone has said it's actually worse. It's definitely better, just not better enough. You need to kill something living or undead to use necrophage... Currently in Battle Engine Week 1 CID, Necrophage triggers off enemy model destroyed or removed from play and will trigger from destroying warjacks. Oh good. So it can work as a finisher into a jackspam at least.
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