Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 1:30:32 GMT
Guys the throne is legit now. For reals. Give him an str or armor debuff and he hits hard. It's not a question of how hard it hits, it's a question of how many attacks it can make. Even with fury, its maximum attacks are the same as many beasts' initial attacks. PS20 with fury, boosted on the charge, and 2 other initials is only 24-ish damage on a juggernaut. 30ish on an ironclad. It's close to how hard a Neraph can hit without a sorceress (the neraph generally beats it with one).
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Post by neutralyze on Apr 27, 2017 2:23:10 GMT
I'm skeptical. If there was an infantry-heavy meta, then sure, but its expensive for a model that seems to be mostly useless against a 'jack-heavy list. It can't meaningfully cause damage since it can't boost anymore, freezer isn't terribly useful as a defensive mechanism vs models that can shake it, and it basically loses snacking and necrophage vs non-infantry. It's lost some assassination power from no boosting either. If there was a more balanced meta and I could count on at least one significant unit in every list, I'd say it's a good model for its points. Arguably it looks great against massed infantry, but I've yet to see massed infantry in mk3. Until then, there are too many match-ups where its only relevant for its boxes and armor - which collectively is just 2 more boxes worth of durability over a juggernaut for 5 points more. I'll give it a whirl with my Thagrosh1 list, in any case. It might be a passable replacement for Proteus in my Oracles list. Think about the many heavy warbeasts like circle beats and legion beasts that fall over when stationary. The point is that armor 20 with a lot of boxes means people will allocate an abnormal amount of attacks to take it down, more than before. Cause you make those models stationary and then you take them on your turn. They don't get a chance to shake stationary.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 2:57:55 GMT
I'm skeptical. If there was an infantry-heavy meta, then sure, but its expensive for a model that seems to be mostly useless against a 'jack-heavy list. It can't meaningfully cause damage since it can't boost anymore, freezer isn't terribly useful as a defensive mechanism vs models that can shake it, and it basically loses snacking and necrophage vs non-infantry. It's lost some assassination power from no boosting either. If there was a more balanced meta and I could count on at least one significant unit in every list, I'd say it's a good model for its points. Arguably it looks great against massed infantry, but I've yet to see massed infantry in mk3. Until then, there are too many match-ups where its only relevant for its boxes and armor - which collectively is just 2 more boxes worth of durability over a juggernaut for 5 points more. I'll give it a whirl with my Thagrosh1 list, in any case. It might be a passable replacement for Proteus in my Oracles list. Think about the many heavy warbeasts like circle beats and legion beasts that fall over when stationary. The point is that armor 20 with a lot of boxes means people will allocate an abnormal amount of attacks to take it down, more than before. Cause you make those models stationary and then you take them on your turn. They don't get a chance to shake stationary. Sure, I'm not going to deny it will have strengths in some matches. It seems very mediocre into jack heavy lists though and lists without meaningful infantry.
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Post by neutralyze on Apr 27, 2017 3:15:07 GMT
Picture a bunch of stationary jacks and saeryn1 blight bringer. Finally a matchup to use it and her in.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 27, 2017 3:24:12 GMT
Think about the many heavy warbeasts like circle beats and legion beasts that fall over when stationary. The point is that armor 20 with a lot of boxes means people will allocate an abnormal amount of attacks to take it down, more than before. Cause you make those models stationary and then you take them on your turn. They don't get a chance to shake stationary. Sure, I'm not going to deny it will have strengths in some matches. It seems very mediocre into jack heavy lists though and lists without meaningful infantry. if anything tries to attack it they become stationary until their next turn, that's good against everything except ranged lists.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 4:31:19 GMT
Sure, I'm not going to deny it will have strengths in some matches. It seems very mediocre into jack heavy lists though and lists without meaningful infantry. if anything tries to attack it they become stationary until their next turn, that's good against everything except ranged lists. No, AFTER they attack it they become stationary. It's end of activation not end of movement and its total durability is only 2 boxes higher than a juggernaut, so anything that can one-round a juggernaut can potentially one-round the throne too.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 27, 2017 5:03:27 GMT
It has to be said that the Throne is fairly self-sufficient. It's probably our most efficient infantry killer and all it takes is one unit for it to start earning its keep between MAT(MAG) 7. How often are people seeing all jack lists? You'd think there'd be some solos or support of some kind for it to eat and spray.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 5:13:44 GMT
It has to be said that the Throne is fairly self-sufficient. It's probably our most efficient infantry killer and all it takes is one unit for it to start earning its keep between MAT(MAG) 7. How often are people seeing all jack lists? You'd think there'd be some solos or support of some kind for it to eat and spray. It honestly depends on how much is around. If it's just something like a unit of mechaniks or some solos here and there, do you really feel that a dedicated 17 point infantry-killer is an ideal choice over, say, a pair of deathstalkers or Annyssa for less than half that? I think it will compliment dedicated anti-armor fairly well, since it's a sort of one-stop solution to infantry in a list that could otherwise avoid investing in anti-infantry solutions. My problem is where to take it? Unless you give up theme benefits for it, you can only take it in oracles, and it doesn't contribute to nor benefit from the theme in any way, it's just an option. And in that theme list, you can already frequently take a pair of free sorceresses, who are also excellent anti-infantry tools with good threat range. If anything, the throne will take away from your free models. You'll definitely lose a solo to include it if it's replacing a warbeast, so even IN theme you can tack 4-6 points onto it depending on what you're giving up to include it. It obviously chews up infantry, and snacking is a big deal when we're talking about that many boxes and that much armor. But honestly, I don't take any dedicated anti-infantry anymore except where it's extremely inexpensive or free (deathstalkers and sorcs mainly). Even where I include infantry these days, they either always can contribute to anti-armor, or they provide tools to stall armor, like Hex Hunters. There's also the problem that if they want to use freezer vs non-infantry, they are giving up all their attacks to do so if they don't have anything they can kill that turn.
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Post by snotling on Apr 27, 2017 6:54:30 GMT
That got already changed, you can cast freezer now after you killed something
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 27, 2017 7:21:03 GMT
That got already changed, you can cast freezer now after you killed something 'non-infantry' I said. You need to kill something living or undead to use necrophage, and a throne isn't likely to be killing heavies unless it's finishing off already-damaged ones. Even then, it can't use necrophage from killing a warjack anyways. If you can't use necrophage, then you have to choose between casting a single spell, or making your 3 initial attacks. This also means that it can't use freezer on the charge unless, again, it kills something living/undead. Can't freezer and run, either. Either way, it's just one more rule on the throne that's just that much harder to employ against a battlegroup-heavy list, and those are pretty popular right now.
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Post by josephkerr on Apr 27, 2017 8:02:27 GMT
That got already changed, you can cast freezer now after you killed something You need to kill something living or undead to use necrophage... Currently in Battle Engine Week 1 CID, Necrophage triggers off enemy model destroyed or removed from play and will trigger from destroying warjacks.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 27, 2017 8:18:18 GMT
Look interesting. I wil try it out today with Thagrosh1. But one big question remains Throne or Sacral Vault Meat thresher doesn't look bad either
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Post by DanX on Apr 27, 2017 9:46:29 GMT
I think a comparison table of Throne/Vault/Thresher is interesting.
Throne and Vault are very different.
Throne and Thresher are pretty similar seeming - the Thresher kicks out a lot more damage it seems from nearly as far away. It is Spd8, it gets to attack and knock down everything with in an inch and then shoot everything, weather it killed anything or not. It doesn't have reach 4", and it takes some damage for Spd8. it also doesn't get snacking or healing or friendly faction Legion buffs, but if it can get in there - I think it will do more damage to Infantry - and more damage to Heavies by quite a lot. (I'm a bit jaded as I faced one in a steamroller a month or so ago - and it was amazing then.) Now its faster, and tougher - one hell off a tank.
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Post by custardboy on Apr 27, 2017 11:34:45 GMT
The throne's ability to kill spread out infantry far outstrips that of the thresher though. The thresher needed all of those buffs because it was terrible against high damage infantry that could out threat it or spread out enough- which is most of them. And it was a dedicated infantry killer. Now I would take the thresher for mixed role and the throne for infantry slaying. I really want to give a Lylyth1 oracles list a try with double throne, double free sorceress and the rest in armour cracking.
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Post by snotling on Apr 27, 2017 11:49:43 GMT
I want to try it with lylyth1 to, single throne tho.
Another thought: It really should have pull. Would really fit in with our other tentacle stuff, and also make winters grip way better.
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