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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 15, 2021 19:26:14 GMT
Good point. Guys, let's all be super-negative until after the rules are finalised.
Argh! Why doesn't K2 have a nuke he'll never cast?!
Joking aside, I think the actual miniature looks good. I hate to say it, but I think I like it more than K1 - although I wouldn't be using any green paint in my own version.
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Post by MacGuffin on Apr 15, 2021 20:13:02 GMT
Hungerford mentioned on Facebook that they're keeping an eye on his ranged AOE Shadow Bind attack, which by negative implication suggests that the remainder of his kit is not going to be nerfed. I don't think the ranged attack is overpowered, but if I had to choose something to nerf, I'd prefer to nerf that rather than his spell list or feat.
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Post by Havock on Apr 15, 2021 20:28:19 GMT
Argh! Why doesn't K2 have a nuke he'll never cast?! Because he has a gun worth firing and boosting.
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Post by michael on Apr 16, 2021 0:52:20 GMT
Joking aside, I think the actual miniature looks good. I hate to say it, but I think I like it more than K1 - although I wouldn't be using any green paint in my own version. I’m with you there. I have been looking at the studio model and wondering about replacing Karchev’s face with a no-warjack-grille version, and wondering how I could paint the “Deathjack ribcage” part to make them not look like a Deathjack ribcage. Hmm.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 16, 2021 4:07:42 GMT
I know you're joking, but it really does feel like you take this game too seriously sometimes. I am joking. Sort of. Every time I express approval for something Khador in CID, it gets nerfed. You can thank me for Malakov2’s feat not working on battle engines. :-P It's a science, consider our post CID sessions. Not only Khador, but also many other CID are end up like this. ----- Well, at least for now all he can abuse seems stacking ARM buff, that's all. And only one among them can have ARM 24, and it's only against melee(although it's the point). Berserker with +2 ARM against melee is nasty, for if you start to put Berserkers it's not efficient to deal with it by ranged, but isn't Berserker already a mediocre but cheap jack that make use of the buff greatly? For Karchev2 it's +2 ARM against melee. That's all. Even with this most factions are able to crack ARM 20 without dedicated setup. Juggernaut chassis with ARM 22 is hard to crack, but is ARM 22 such a unique feature? You need your dedicate case cracker to against such opponents, but you may do it. Although it is debatable that it is that easy. I have to think about how to defeat him. If it is not ridiculously difficult, then he is good to go. So what would be optimal list for him right now?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 16, 2021 5:47:57 GMT
I have been looking at the studio model and wondering about replacing Karchev’s face with a no-warjack-grille version, and wondering how I could paint the “Deathjack ribcage” part to make them not look like a Deathjack ribcage. I don't think I mind the face grille, but I agree that the ribcage is a little more cryxian than I would like. I think it would probably look fine with just the green glow omitted; maybe paint it brass over dark steel or armour-red?
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Post by hocestbellum on Apr 16, 2021 7:34:43 GMT
An interesting thought with the Berzerker is that Full Throttle means they will have a focus to use in melee, and Abbatoir can give them some extra attacks. However, they are still only MAT6 P+S16 so I wouldn't expect miracles.
It's hard for me to look past the humble Juggernaut here. There's no damage buff so I think you have to pack some hitting power, and a Juggernaut with free charges, boosted attack rolls, and some extra attacks is going to total almost anything
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 16, 2021 9:53:19 GMT
Wow. ARM buff on Khador jack? Finally. The idea seems, take some heavies, cast Locked Horns, use the feat to help them to engage, cast Abattoir if you can exploit it(although it is unlikely on the alpha strike turn for you better keep your jack's activation later if you could), then let the enemy despair before net ARM of 20 or more in melee. Is +2 FOCUS means, although he has no offensive spell, but it increases his control range, right? So feel free to exploit AOE CTRL spells. Looks interesting. Although he may suffer some problematic situations. So, with this, will just put the Juggernaut instead of spamming Berserkers and hide it a better idea? Although ARM 20 Berserker in melee is something I don't want to against, so Berserker spam is still a thing for him. And... ARM 22 Juggernaut on melee? And one of these will have up to ARM 24 in melee? Well, Khador warjacks are able to be killed by ranged attacks, but it isn't that easy. He will upkeeping Onslaught and Death Ward(1 each), casting Locked Horns(3), and he will have 3 free focus to either cast Abattoir or Full Throttle(it is unlikely to cast it unless at least two non-Berserker chassis are need to charge on the same turn or you are able to reach to the opponents' caster, though), or allocate. You may drop Onslaught if you don't have the rough terrain. Despite of effective FOC 8 warcaster, he seems not so wealthy. Although Meat for the Beast doesn't needs him to kill the enemy, so you may aim for kill a random enemy trooper and cast Locked Horns for free. But on Khador you will not have much jacks suited for the task(such as cheap bonejack), or you need to use a Berserker. And, while he seems strong, but he lacks something big to turn the tide. Although durable iron wall already makes him quite viable. An another way to use him is with Man-o-War. Unyielding is a kidding for most units, but for heavies and colossals... it may a terrible nightmare for your opponent. Also, Man-o-War has exceptionally high ARM so Locked Horns gives more protections against enemy weapon masters. And... colossal. I have seen colossals are dominant choice for Cygnar, with innate Arcane Shield. But will Karchev2 uses colossal with the similar reason? To a recipient of Death Ward? Else is it better to cycle the upkeep each time your jack with Death Ward is (about to be) killed? I think you will cast full throttle every turn where the jacks have enemies to hit, because it makes him much more focus efficient, plus the work on out of activations attacks, aka abattoir . You will also never cast onslaught and upkeep death ward on him instead so the enemy cannot carve out his skulls. Onslaught relevantly does not work on the feat move and in jaws you have pathfinder on everything anyway. Berserker spam is bad and karjack does nothing to fix that. Dont use berserkers with him. I generally think P+S 16 jack are a trap with him. He does nothing to fix damage, so Juggernauts are where it's at. P+S 19 is a significant upgrade and make abattoir attacks relevant. I also dont think colossals are a good idea with him. They dont get to make a feat move and cost almost as much as 3 juggernauts.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 16, 2021 14:04:41 GMT
Wow. ARM buff on Khador jack? Finally. The idea seems, take some heavies, cast Locked Horns, use the feat to help them to engage, cast Abattoir if you can exploit it(although it is unlikely on the alpha strike turn for you better keep your jack's activation later if you could), then let the enemy despair before net ARM of 20 or more in melee. Is +2 FOCUS means, although he has no offensive spell, but it increases his control range, right? So feel free to exploit AOE CTRL spells. Looks interesting. Although he may suffer some problematic situations. So, with this, will just put the Juggernaut instead of spamming Berserkers and hide it a better idea? Although ARM 20 Berserker in melee is something I don't want to against, so Berserker spam is still a thing for him. And... ARM 22 Juggernaut on melee? And one of these will have up to ARM 24 in melee? Well, Khador warjacks are able to be killed by ranged attacks, but it isn't that easy. He will upkeeping Onslaught and Death Ward(1 each), casting Locked Horns(3), and he will have 3 free focus to either cast Abattoir or Full Throttle(it is unlikely to cast it unless at least two non-Berserker chassis are need to charge on the same turn or you are able to reach to the opponents' caster, though), or allocate. You may drop Onslaught if you don't have the rough terrain. Despite of effective FOC 8 warcaster, he seems not so wealthy. Although Meat for the Beast doesn't needs him to kill the enemy, so you may aim for kill a random enemy trooper and cast Locked Horns for free. But on Khador you will not have much jacks suited for the task(such as cheap bonejack), or you need to use a Berserker. And, while he seems strong, but he lacks something big to turn the tide. Although durable iron wall already makes him quite viable. An another way to use him is with Man-o-War. Unyielding is a kidding for most units, but for heavies and colossals... it may a terrible nightmare for your opponent. Also, Man-o-War has exceptionally high ARM so Locked Horns gives more protections against enemy weapon masters. And... colossal. I have seen colossals are dominant choice for Cygnar, with innate Arcane Shield. But will Karchev2 uses colossal with the similar reason? To a recipient of Death Ward? Else is it better to cycle the upkeep each time your jack with Death Ward is (about to be) killed? I think you will cast full throttle every turn where the jacks have enemies to hit, because it makes him much more focus efficient, plus the work on out of activations attacks, aka abattoir . You will also never cast onslaught and upkeep death ward on him instead so the enemy cannot carve out his skulls. Onslaught relevantly does not work on the feat move and in jaws you have pathfinder on everything anyway. Berserker spam is bad and karjack does nothing to fix that. Dont use berserkers with him. I generally think P+S 16 jack are a trap with him. He does nothing to fix damage, so Juggernauts are where it's at. P+S 19 is a significant upgrade and make abattoir attacks relevant. I also dont think colossals are a good idea with him. They dont get to make a feat move and cost almost as much as 3 juggernauts. I don't think that Berserkers are damage dealers. Without a buff they are nothing but the expendable metal shields. Good amount of damage box and capable ARM for only 8 points make them annoying target. But as you know, without a buff they are nothing but the pillow-fisting annoying piece.
So is taking multiple Juggernauts the better idea? What about the other jacks?
What about Devastator chassis? Bulldoze is useful on the feat turn. Also, it makes up Armored Shell - it have ridiculously high ARM until you make an attack, and after an attack it should be in melee with the enemy, so Unyielding makes them still keep the good ARM after the attack.
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Post by michael on Apr 16, 2021 14:24:56 GMT
Things to point out:
1) His feat does not work on colossals. Colossals can’t advance outside their normal movement, period, so they can’t end the feat advance in melee with an enemy. You can’t event try to use the “I advance 0 inches” argument because they can’t advance. So that’s a thing.
2) Berserkers are still Berserkers at the end of the day.
3) “Oh my god Unyielding on Khador jacks is impossible to beat nerf Karchev2 now doom dooooom!” We HAD Unyielding + always-on Pathfinder for years via Kozlov. Yes, it was only during feat, but so what. I’ve also had opponents blow away multiple warjacks with ranged attacks during Harkevich’s feat turn, so it’s not like that +2 is hard to overcome. Also, Thagrosh1 does this exact same thing already via Death Shroud, and he doesn’t even have to pay to cast a spell! (Yes, Thag1’s Death Shroud range is smaller, but math is math. If he can make Thrones and Carniveans effective ARM 22 without breaking the game, it’s fine.)
4) Karchev2 is never going to have focus to allocate, so he’d better be a freaking good force multiplier. All his kit is tied to casting like four spells every turn.
Something something something.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Apr 16, 2021 15:33:38 GMT
While 'normal' lists are hard to deal with him, but I don't think that you can't have a solution for this either. Some jacks with ARM 22 is scary, indeed, but we all know that it is far from the invincible army. There are already various dedicated armor cracker lists to crack something like this. He can make a skew list, sure, but a skew list is not an universal auto-win button either.
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Post by michael on Apr 16, 2021 15:39:26 GMT
I agree.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 17, 2021 9:04:55 GMT
I think you will cast full throttle every turn where the jacks have enemies to hit, because it makes him much more focus efficient, plus the work on out of activations attacks, aka abattoir . You will also never cast onslaught and upkeep death ward on him instead so the enemy cannot carve out his skulls. Onslaught relevantly does not work on the feat move and in jaws you have pathfinder on everything anyway. Berserker spam is bad and karjack does nothing to fix that. Dont use berserkers with him. I generally think P+S 16 jack are a trap with him. He does nothing to fix damage, so Juggernauts are where it's at. P+S 19 is a significant upgrade and make abattoir attacks relevant. I also dont think colossals are a good idea with him. They dont get to make a feat move and cost almost as much as 3 juggernauts. I don't think that Berserkers are damage dealers. Without a buff they are nothing but the expendable metal shields. Good amount of damage box and capable ARM for only 8 points make them annoying target. But as you know, without a buff they are nothing but the pillow-fisting annoying piece.
So is taking multiple Juggernauts the better idea? What about the other jacks?
What about Devastator chassis? Bulldoze is useful on the feat turn. Also, it makes up Armored Shell - it have ridiculously high ARM until you make an attack, and after an attack it should be in melee with the enemy, so Unyielding makes them still keep the good ARM after the attack.
The problem with many cheap berserkers is that they dont do any damage, so all they do is not die, so long as you dont make them spend focus. Meaning the list folds as soon as the enemy has semi competent chaff to bog you down and lock you out of scenario. I would also not want to rely on boosted MAT 6 + berzerk to clear said chaff either. Juggernauts are MAT 7, P+S 19 meaning they can do work in and out of activation and are still arm 24 in melee with unyielding and mortal fear. Devvys are still a good call but i dont think you want an entire list for full of them. Rain of death solves the chaff problem, bulldoze is great for scenario, but they are still Mat 6, P+S 16, like with karchev1 i think you want like two to take a faraway zone or flag. My point is esentially: Big ARM only get you so far in this game.
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Post by michael on Apr 17, 2021 14:09:06 GMT
Full Throttle MAT 6 + Berserk P+S 16 actually isn’t bad! That will kill pretty much all single wound infantry.
The area covered by a Berserker with 1” melee is roughly equivalent to the area covered by a Doom Reaver.
The problem is this: SPD 6 Doom Reavers with small bases can get to FAR more interesting places than SPD 4 large-based Berserkers, and they’re going to significantly outnumber the Berserkers too.
Remember, kids: Warmachine is a game of positioning!
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Post by michael on Apr 21, 2021 21:43:04 GMT
I pledged for Karchev2 anyway. I guess I’ll get a free Feora4 and Kommandog Barkevich out of it too, so that’s nice.
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