wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 26, 2017 12:42:56 GMT
I think Soul might mean that you probably don't want to play him entirely with ranged jacks, as that is a little one dimensional. If you make jacks your core, but build out to a more diverse list, he may perform better.
Of course, I could be misunderstanding Soul as well.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2017 16:43:24 GMT
wait wait...are you guys really complaining about Harkevitch?...you know how good his toolbox is right?....Isnt that the caster with BG repo 3, SPD6 pathfinder heavies, and a feat that makes them all +3 arm to boot?...is this for real?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 16:46:50 GMT
wait wait...are you guys really complaining about Harkevitch?...you know how good his toolbox is right?....Isnt that the caster with BG repo 3, SPD6 pathfinder heavies, and a feat that makes them all +3 arm to boot?...is this for real? Considering he's one of our most powerful casters at the moment though, I think you could just leave him alone and he'd be fixed. Let me repeat: Its not power level. Its the idea. I really like the idea of a Tank Commander. I wish they could make that work.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2017 16:53:09 GMT
wait wait...are you guys really complaining about Harkevitch?...you know how good his toolbox is right?....Isnt that the caster with BG repo 3, SPD6 pathfinder heavies, and a feat that makes them all +3 arm to boot?...is this for real? Considering he's one of our most powerful casters at the moment though, I think you could just leave him alone and he'd be fixed. Let me repeat: Its not power level. Its the idea. I really like the idea of a Tank Commander. I wish they could make that work. I can understand wanting a caster to play more thematically. But I would say instead of making him better, replace something he has like his field marshal with something that pushes more to that theme without breaking him. Replacing repo 3 with a Field marshall that gives ROF+1 or even Reload 1 to his jacks could be what your looking for. Maybey at that point replace broadside with a cost 2 upkeep that gives Repo to his BG so hes a little more focus starved to compensate.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 26, 2017 17:00:27 GMT
I think Soul might mean that you probably don't want to play him entirely with ranged jacks, as that is a little one dimensional. If you make jacks your core, but build out to a more diverse list, he may perform better. Of course, I could be misunderstanding Soul as well. Well, what I'm trying to say is that all a caster's tools driving you to build and play him in a certain way is a bit one-dimensional. It might make him very competitive I guess, but... maybe not as interesting or fun in the long run? And possibly much more meta-dependant? Casters like Vlad1 and maybe Strak 2 can be built in different ways, allowing them to play differently and handle different threats. If Hark had some kind of battgroup melee buff instead of Broadsides, he would basically have almost zero variation in list building, playstyle, and preferred opponents. Broadsides kinda means you can try building him a little differently for fun or to handle different threats. Maybe, I don't know, just wondering out loud I guess.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 17:03:27 GMT
I get it, its just I want more. At the moment its like 99.5% Melee better and then 0.5% potential for ranged.
It describes him as using overwhelming firepower! I want that feeling of commanding tank legions! Even if it means losing something in melee if his ranged was better!
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2017 17:38:55 GMT
I get it, its just I want more. At the moment its like 99.5% Melee better and then 0.5% potential for ranged. It describes him as using overwhelming firepower! I want that feeling of commanding tank legions! Even if it means losing something in melee if his ranged was better! While I don't play Khador I think either increasing the cost of some of the melee jack or decreasing the cost of ranged jacks would help encourage this play style. Part of the problem right now is you guys have incredible options for heavy jacks that are spammable at 10-12 points and hit like trucks without a dmg or mat buff. Im not crying nerf to khador or anything but I can see why you would prefer more combat jacks that are cheap and spamable to ranged jacks that are pricey and work better with a variety. I don't think the issue is with harky I think the issue is with the marauder and Juggy being too darn good to pass
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 17:46:51 GMT
While I don't play Khador I think either increasing the cost of some of the melee jack or decreasing the cost of ranged jacks would help encourage this play style. Part of the problem right now is you guys have incredible options for heavy jacks that are spammable at 10-12 points and hit like trucks without a dmg or mat buff. Im not crying nerf to khador or anything but I can see why you would prefer more combat jacks that are cheap and spamable to ranged jacks that are pricey and work better with a variety. I don't think the issue is with harky I think the issue is with the marauder and Juggy being too darn good to pass Well, I would say the Melee stuff is balanced to stuff around the same point cost. Nomad, Crusader and that Driller guy all have access to similar power and damage at lower cost. Khador has access to unbuffed powerhouses but it also doesn't really have Buffs sans warcaster. Nothing to increase your lightning Damage or get free focus, or Power or such in faction. So that makes Khador very no thrills. Call it gut instinct, but I don't sense that Nerfing melee would make Harkevitchs playstyle better. The rise of More defense ignoring stuff at the end of MKII didn't suddenly make warjacks better. People just shifted to iron fangs but they were slightly worse then WGI, so Khador got slightly worse. I see spam ability as an issue, but I just don't see an easy solution without murdering faction Identity. I don't play spam. Even with Kharchev my Team is balanced. I just want my Bearded tank commander.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2017 18:23:04 GMT
I understand jacks are pretty well balanced by points in comparison to each other within the specific categories. The issue is I don't think the devs properly estimated how effective 10-12 point Mat 7 High P+S jacks could become in the terms of #design space. The issue with Harkevitch is he makes every jack as fast as any heavy in the game, ignoring terrain and gives the increased maneuverability and survivability through his amazing feat. He covers the weakness of khador jacks while increasing their strengths. Arm 20 is actually a significant buff in terms of points considerations as it may seem insignificant compared to arm 19 but its one of those differences that comes shows itself more as you play. teh devestator has a special rule other jacks of similar costs lack (the extra die against huge based) that gives it a silly amount of power in certain match ups. My issue is that base the jacks cost too little its that once you factor in caster buffs, feats, focus allocation, and special rules in the optimized scenario those jacks are normally killing models and doing work Warbeasts or other jacks do at a significant points increase. I think Jakc spam is an issue regardless of faction I just think currently (mostly due to themes khador (and dorfs *shudders*) does it best.
Like I said Im not crying Nerf at all, I just am with you and would like to see and have a reason for more faction diversity
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 18:32:49 GMT
Well, I'm not fully sure what you mean.
Sure he does make our Jacks Faster, but other stuff with Mobility can make fast Jacks super fast, or they get to use that focus with something else.
Not saying Harkevitch isn't good, but I think much of the spam problem is just being able to win by scenario. I think once people adjust strategies, I think Kharchev and Harkevitch Lists that rely on spam will really suffer.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 26, 2017 18:47:03 GMT
Well, I'm not fully sure what you mean. Sure he does make our Jacks Faster, but other stuff with Mobility can make fast Jacks super fast, or they get to use that focus with something else. Not saying Harkevitch isn't good, but I think much of the spam problem is just being able to win by scenario. I think once people adjust strategies, I think Kharchev and Harkevitch Lists that rely on spam will really suffer. In SR2017 Heavy Jack Spam (especially with SPD6 Pathfinder Arm 20 High P+S jacks with Mat 7 *shudders*) will continue to be a problem now that SR2017 favors attrition and assassination especially considering how difficult it can be to assassinate Harky if he camps The spam problem (form my experience) was actually mitigated by me playing solid tactical scenario play with casters like Krueger 2 and Mohsar. Circle as a faction will never beat khador at attrition in a fair fight especially when your jacks threat as far as our beasts in most circumstances. (sometimes more because of pathfinder) edit: let me add that i understand mobility on any warmachine caster will cause issues. Amon is also a huge problem for circle for the very same reason (well that and synergy *shudders*)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 19:36:13 GMT
Hmm. Now I feel tempted to start Playing Circle. Im a "Never Say Never" kinda guy at heart. Anyway a good website regardless is: buyorboost.herokuapp.com/#Its good for understanding expectations (Be warned its ROF still functions under MKII rules). The key to Khador is just not to try to alpha kill them unless the offensive is aggressively overwhelming. And even bigger is: Don't Psyche yourself outHave faith in your own factions advantages. Against Legion I find myself freaking against their speed game that I make stupid errors and let play overprotectively.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 27, 2017 1:51:58 GMT
I don't understand how it's difficult to comprehend that there is something wrong with a caster that has a Cost 3 spell and half of his feat that NEVER get used...
Obviously he can play successfully as a melee jack caster. He also has tools that are clearly designed to allow him to play with a more diverse battle group. But they *DON'T* work!
Making his ranged tools work would NOT make him suddenly over powered. It would simply allow people to play him in a different way. A way that PP obviously thought would be an option for him but is currently not.
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Post by borderprince on Apr 27, 2017 4:28:19 GMT
I don't understand how it's difficult to comprehend that there is something wrong with a caster that has a Cost 3 spell and half of his feat that NEVER get used... Obviously he can play successfully as a melee jack caster. He also has tools that are clearly designed to allow him to play with a more diverse battle group. But they *DON'T* work! Making his ranged tools work would NOT make him suddenly over powered. It would simply allow people to play him in a different way. A way that PP obviously thought would be an option for him but is currently not. And I don't think that's due to Hark's set of tools being bad. It's to do with ranged being weaker than melee and boostable shooting/combined arms jacks often being over-priced by PP. Both of those are wider game features and at least the first is meant to be a game feature. Changing Harkevich is trying to address wider issues in the game by changing one caster. That's really the problem here. Hark is already a good caster. Giving him, and him alone, more would probably make him too good. If the issues are wider ones of melee vs ranged both in terms of damage output and points cost, tweaking Harkevich isn't the way to do it. That gives an advantage to Khador relative to other factions which Khador doesn't need.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 27, 2017 6:59:39 GMT
I agree that you CAN look at it from the angle of ranged jacks being the problem. But it's sort of a circular problem.
Harks abilities don't work with the ranged jacks he is able to select from. There ARE ranged jacks in the game that would work with his abilities really well. He just doesn't have access to them. Yes, many of the combined arms jacks are over costed and that has always been a problem in Khador. But the Destroyer is pretty close to being the right cost (I still don't see why it should cost more than a Kodiak, but then other people will argue that Kodiaks are too cheap).
So in my mind that means he has the wrong ability set. The problem of course is Rat 4 and you could solve it easily by having the extra attack in activation or by giving him a Rat fixer. This is no way would make him 'too good'. As we have already observed combined arms jacks cost more points. It's not going to give an advantage to Khador that there is ONE caster that can take a Decimator and not feel like a complete idiot for wasting the points on it. At the end of the day he is still going to be more efficient when taken with the cheaper and more powerful melee jacks. But for those that want to do it, he would have some game with combined arms.
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