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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 25, 2017 15:00:24 GMT
Whilst not a significant boost to power, a simple Harkevitch Fix so that at least he could use his whole toolkit with at least some more ease would be replacing broadsides with a different spell:
This doesn't fix everything but at least Broadsides isn't being counterintuitive too Reposition, and when a Warjack Aims, it gets the bonus to all its attacks rather then only those during its activation.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 25, 2017 15:09:18 GMT
Repo 3 can synergise with Broadside, move up shoot and kill something, repo forward then shoot with broadside to shoot something further away
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 25, 2017 15:16:04 GMT
Repo 3 can synergise with Broadside, move up shoot and kill something, repo forward then shoot with broadside to shoot something further away But the second time the attack will be unboosted, and will not gain any accuracy buffs. And incase you want to aim it also doesn't synergize, or in case you want to shoot and retreat (One of the Major advantages of reposition) you also don't benefit.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 25, 2017 15:40:08 GMT
Repo 3 can synergise with Broadside, move up shoot and kill something, repo forward then shoot with broadside to shoot something further away But the second time the attack will be unboosted, and will not gain any accuracy buffs. And incase you want to aim it also doesn't synergize, or in case you want to shoot and retreat (One of the Major advantages of reposition) you also don't benefit. Maybe those are deliberate limitations of Broadside, otherwise it is only a Fire Group away from being Kara Sloan's feat every turn, albeit in Khador which is not as good
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Post by sand20go on Apr 25, 2017 15:40:32 GMT
Repo 3 can synergise with Broadside, move up shoot and kill something, repo forward then shoot with broadside to shoot something further away But the second time the attack will be unboosted, and will not gain any accuracy buffs. And incase you want to aim it also doesn't synergize, or in case you want to shoot and retreat (One of the Major advantages of reposition) you also don't benefit. That is the core problem. You are using THREE focus to get off unboosted 14 or 15 at RAT 4. Now if you have Crit devestated or brought a field gun (or 2) you might have that RAT problem fixed. But at POW 14 into ARM 18 you are spending 3 focus to put on another, on average, 3-4 damage. Not "bad" but not sure over the long run and many games you not just better off camping or allocating broadly. I agree that there are turns where Hark doesn't blow his stack and is perfectly safe. That is a "sad" turn. But I just can't make it work with RAT4/POW 14 to create better options.
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Post by borderprince on Apr 25, 2017 23:09:54 GMT
But the second time the attack will be unboosted, and will not gain any accuracy buffs. And incase you want to aim it also doesn't synergize, or in case you want to shoot and retreat (One of the Major advantages of reposition) you also don't benefit. That is the core problem. You are using THREE focus to get off unboosted 14 or 15 at RAT 4...But at POW 14 into ARM 18 you are spending 3 focus to put on another, on average, 3-4 damage. Not "bad" but not sure over the long run and many games you not just better off camping or allocating broadly. I agree that there are turns where Hark doesn't blow his stack and is perfectly safe. That is a "sad" turn. But I just can't make it work with RAT4/POW 14 to create better options. I think there are two ways to think about Broadsides: (1) Build for it. I think this is the mindset which leads to being disappointed in the spell. Khador's unboosted jack shooting simply isn't that good. However, don't discount chipping away with multiple shots causing 3-4 damage each. Ever used FFE Mortars on Bart's Battened Galleon? Each should do about 4-5 damage per hit. But two of them, combined with a couple of boosted shots from Destroyers can start to chip away systems and the like, making the Galleon much more vulnerable later. It's death by papercuts. A Broadsides focused build would be similar. It won't destroy much with Broadsides shooting, but it will start to give the attrition advantage. I don't think this is the optimal use of Broadsides, but I think it is how you need to think about it if you want to build for it. (2) Use it when you need that extra shot(s). You've got a hittable target with a few damage points left being very inconvenient (blocking a scenario point, obstructing a charge lane) and nothing else to take it out. Try with Broadsides. Or if you need to hit a potent but low-armored threat early (think Eiryss1 or similar) or a bunch of low-armored infantry in a scenario zone. Run your jack(s), cast broadsides and hope for good drifts. That could be game changing early on. This sort of approach to the spell works particularly well with Black Ivan, who is still quite accurate. Or in combination with stationary effects, which Khador is strong in. When those 3-4 damage are just what you need, Broadsides is good. Broadsides is a tool in Hark's arsenal. It is not the only tool there, nor is it meant to be. At present I think it suffers because of a heavy-ARM meta leading to a monster mash in the middle of the table. But if SR2017 encourages more infantry and a bit more spreading out due to more complicated zones, it might become more valuable. It's worth pointing out that Broadsides also isn't that great with the only other caster who has it, Captain Bart. Bart can use it better because he can also have Hot Shot upkept on his Galleon (for free, with Sylys) and still cast Batten. But that uses all his focus too (meaning the Galleon's Harpoon and drag is less effective). I think this is deliberate - Broadsides is not meant to be something you cast every turn, but an option when you might want/need it. Bart as the only other caster with the spell might also suggest that PP's view is that this is really a spell about getting more blast damage out, rather than direct hits.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 26, 2017 1:23:00 GMT
I have to be contrary here and say: NEVER ever build a list around Broadside. That is the trap that people fall into when they first look at Hark. Broadside is a super niche spell that you shouldn't be planning on casting. It does have uses but they won't come up in most games. As to the fix, I like it. But I don't think it would make taking regular ranged jacks worth while. It would however make taking double Conquest pretty insane
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 1:44:24 GMT
It's worth pointing out that Broadsides also isn't that great with the only other caster who has it, Captain Bart. Bart can use it better because he can also have Hot Shot upkept on his Galleon (for free, with Sylys) and still cast Batten. But that uses all his focus too (meaning the Galleon's Harpoon and drag is less effective). I think this is deliberate - Broadsides is not meant to be something you cast every turn, but an option when you might want/need it. Bart as the only other caster with the spell might also suggest that PP's view is that this is really a spell about getting more blast damage out, rather than direct hits. In reading the CID Battle report for an "Imagined" battle for Harkevitch, we can see some of PPs thought process (Its as baffling as ever" Critical brutal" is supposed to promote melee), and see that they want him to feel like a guy who runs TANKS. Harkevitch is supposed to really want to use ranged jacks with some melee punch as thats not just promoted by the spell, but also the feat. I like using all of the buffalo of a caster. If I find myself never using a part of a caster that's part of their core identity, then in my mind its a broken caster no matter how powerful or weak they are. Its also Garbage as blast damage as well.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 26, 2017 2:02:07 GMT
PP needs to delete all critical effects and start again. If something has a critical effect it should be actually really good. Conquest main guns crit and disperse the enemy formation, BV crits and gets to be effective Pow 19.5 for one hit...
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 26, 2017 2:17:12 GMT
You could probably also fix him by giving him weaponmaster and reach on his melee weapon. Giving boosted everything shots on broadside would be nice too.
Considering he's one of our most powerful casters at the moment though, I think you could just leave him alone and he'd be fixed.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 2:32:58 GMT
Considering he's one of our most powerful casters at the moment though, I think you could just leave him alone and he'd be fixed. Let me repeat: Its not power level. Its the idea. I really like the idea of a Tank Commander. I wish they could make that work.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 26, 2017 3:47:35 GMT
It's not that he sucks, it's that he was clearly designed to be able to play a certain way (broadside and assault on the feat) but can't actually play that way. If you try to play him with a ranged battle group then he does start to suck.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 26, 2017 7:17:02 GMT
Maybe he was designed so you could buikd him in different ways, rather than being completely one dimensional?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 26, 2017 7:21:08 GMT
Maybe he was designed so you could build him in different ways, rather than being completely one dimensional? Not really. If it's fluffed to be a tank caster, if its design intentions are a tank caster, if its feat is as a tank caster, if its spell is as a tank caster: Its a tank caster, just poorly implemented.
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Post by borderprince on Apr 26, 2017 12:21:12 GMT
If you try to play him with a ranged battle group then he does start to suck. I think the problem is if you try to play him with only a ranged battle group then he does start to suck. But that's the nature of the game. Melee is (and always has been) more powerful than ranged. You cannot expect to do as well if you rely solely on ranged power. The exceptions to that (Sloan, most obviously) have much more support for shooting than one spell and a part of a feat and are in factions with more powerful/diverse shooting. Harkevich is a much more flexible caster than that. Personally, if Black Ivan had a 2-3 point reduction in points, I would seriously consider him in every Harkevich list and would probably use Broadsides to get an additional accurate shot. No need to tweak the caster, just his character jack (which did not go down in points when the regular Destroyer did).
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