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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 20:37:59 GMT
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 20:37:59 GMT
It just is they played it very safe with her and that’s just mediocre and middle of the pack.
At least we can still be hype about scythe since she’s still great
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 20:41:55 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 15, 2020 20:41:55 GMT
You think so? Sythe's rework (losing Snap Fire and gaining Multifire instead, trading Swift Hunter for Run and Gun) cut away a lot of my anticipation for her.
I guess that Scythe does mean that we can still hope Helga will get toned back up a bit between now and release.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 20:54:15 GMT
Scythe it’s the trade off of snap fire gave more diversity of targets but you needed to kill what you shot each time but multi fire means you can still kinda shoot a lot of things or just shoot one thing and pound it in. Swifthunter vs run and gun also plays into that. Snap fire + swift hunter just felt very snowbally but this is more leveled and consistent for damage and movement
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 20:56:04 GMT
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 20:56:04 GMT
Otherwise there was also the point that maybe helga was being tested alongside other farrow changes since the idea of a farrow dynamic update happening at some point has been talked about by Hungerford, But with the pieces now as they are and Helga as she is now it’s just mediocre and middle of the pack
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 21:22:51 GMT
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Post by custardboy on Jan 15, 2020 21:22:51 GMT
I doubt there are any more Farrow changes in the pipeline. The biggest weakness of Farrow is Hungerford thinking they are good. Clearly that happened here too, he went 'Nah too strong' and made another confused mess of a warlock.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 21:38:02 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 15, 2020 21:38:02 GMT
Otherwise there was also the point that maybe helga was being tested alongside other farrow changes since the idea of a farrow dynamic update happening at some point has been talked about by Hungerford, But with the pieces now as they are and Helga as she is now it’s just mediocre and middle of the pack We literally had a Farrow dynamic update just six months back. A really big one, massive improvements to our warbeast stable, steep discounts on our main armour cracking unit, the addition of a delivery mechanism to the theme. It may not have tipped pigs over into being the dominant force in the meta, but it was substantive and I'm not necessarily feeling that pigs are below the curve so much as just lacking a few support solos and having Warlocks that actually synergise with our options.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 21:51:33 GMT
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 21:51:33 GMT
Otherwise there was also the point that maybe helga was being tested alongside other farrow changes since the idea of a farrow dynamic update happening at some point has been talked about by Hungerford, But with the pieces now as they are and Helga as she is now it’s just mediocre and middle of the pack We literally had a Farrow dynamic update just six months back. A really big one, massive improvements to our warbeast stable, steep discounts on our main armour cracking unit, the addition of a delivery mechanism to the theme. It may not have tipped pigs over into being the dominant force in the meta, but it was substantive and I'm not necessarily feeling that pigs are below the curve so much as just lacking a few support solos and having Warlocks that actually synergise with our options. The whole thing with that update though was that they said they’re keeping an eye on farrow and will make more changes if needed at a later date. Turns out they’re still needed. Changing the warlocks to better synergise is enough of a dynamic update on its own, and there are enough excess farrow models that with very few rules changes turn into the support models needed. Let agata have desperate pace, let Maximus have some leadership ability maybe. Let bone grinders have a offensive magic spell. They don’t need to be dominant, it’d actually be kinda hard to push them that much
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 21:57:20 GMT
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Post by custardboy on Jan 15, 2020 21:57:20 GMT
Much as I hate to say it, we need a CID. I don't think PP are capable of releasing well balanced models on their own any more. Is Helga2 the first warlock in a few years that didn't get a CID? Because the other internally-designed MK3 warlocks (other than the battlebox casters) are often a mess. Mortenebra2, Kallus2, Bethayne, Madrak3, probably some others.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:05:56 GMT
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 22:05:56 GMT
Much as I hate to say it, we need a CID. I don't think PP are capable of releasing well balanced models on their own any more. Is Helga2 the first warlock in a few years that didn't get a CID? Because the other internally-designed MK3 warlocks (other than the battlebox casters) are often a mess. Mortenebra2, Kallus2, Bethayne, Madrak3, probably some others. There is a side point with Helga and Feora and RQ #32 to be that in them being RQ models hungerford has expounded a lot on RQ model being “possibly playable” but are balance to not be defining for their factions. There are of course exceptions in that balance but they’re RQ models first, WMH second, and Helga hits that balance nicely
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:09:44 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 15, 2020 22:09:44 GMT
Yeah, she's the first in years.
I don't think you actually can solve Helga2's current problems by changing the rest of the faction, ironically enough. She's the one who has to shift. She offers such little support to her army that tuning them to the point where she functions on her own would be genuinely problematic. Not to devalue the greatness that is battlegroup-wide cavalry, but boosted attack rolls on some models and Repo are basically the only support she offers. I don't know how she ever solves for any huge base model popular in the meta right now. Her War Hogs only threaten 11", so they're never coming to grips with an Animantarax or Trident and will probably be shot off the table long before they touch a Judicator or Mammoth. Her Road Hogs have no damage buff to ramp them up to the point where they threaten heavy targets without investing a Void Archon or Hermit, and even that isn't enough in many cases (an Animantarax under an Agoniser aura, for example, or most Colossals/Gargantuans for another) without even accounting for the problems that getting those pieces to the right place at the right time. She can't really take advantage of shooting either, not without a way of debuffing enemy armour. Thus far the best idea I've come up with is taking Boomhowler and Ledfoot so that the Hermit can be projected 15" and hopefully make other shooting relevant, but that's still a tactic that falls off in effectiveness pretty quickly and requires some massive investment. Not to mention having to take Boomhowler with a Warlock who really should already have all the Repo she needs...
Basically, as-is, she needs to be able to do enough work to make up for her army's failings, and at the moment she can just about kill a single not-too-hard target and then back up to a spot where it's hypothetically possible the opponent might not be able to reach her...
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:12:10 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 15, 2020 22:12:10 GMT
There is a side point with Helga and Feora and RQ #32 to be that in them being RQ models hungerford has expounded a lot on RQ model being “possibly playable” but are balance to not be defining for their factions. There are of course exceptions in that balance but they’re RQ models first, WMH second, and Helga hits that balance nicely In the stream he also described her as "probably on par with Arkadius" which... man, I am so not seeing it.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:14:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 22:14:59 GMT
There is a side point with Helga and Feora and RQ #32 to be that in them being RQ models hungerford has expounded a lot on RQ model being “possibly playable” but are balance to not be defining for their factions. There are of course exceptions in that balance but they’re RQ models first, WMH second, and Helga hits that balance nicely In the stream he also described her as "probably on par with Arkadius" which... man, I am so not seeing it. Oh that for sure is off. But she still probably is the 2nd or 3rd best Farrow caster with as low of a bar that is
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:41:19 GMT
Post by mydnight on Jan 15, 2020 22:41:19 GMT
Void Archons will be funny on her feat turn at least.
Nyss are okay with primed I guess.
Her play style seems to be to try and get the alpha and then feat to safety. And then boss around herself in the late game. But many things outthreat her army, which means she will need a tarpit to play.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:44:41 GMT
Post by Azahul on Jan 15, 2020 22:44:41 GMT
Oh that for sure is off. But she still probably is the 2nd or 3rd best Farrow caster with as low of a bar that is Oh not in the slightest. Sturm is leagues ahead of her competitively speaking. Carver offers similar mobility options, but he can reasonably deliver his army and his Road Hogs can actually crack armour. Midas isn't bad (I do wish Hungerford would stop saying that people are "sleeping on Midas", we know Midas is fine, we're just sleeping because of Midas and his boring stack the numbers playstyle), and even Helga1 has honestly gained leagues with the release of the Void Archon and new tools like Flugwug. I'm not going to say Helga2 is our worst Warlock without having played her, and I thoroughly intend to play her. But frankly pig Warlocks are ranging from solid to top tier in WWFF. Our infantry just doesn't have a Warlock who wants to run them, which is why the "pigs" label is so tarnished I think. My Helga1 experiments have been so positive since the Void Archon came out that I would say Helga2 is going to have to actually do some work just to claw level with her own former self, and on paper I don't know if she's up for the task.
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Helga2
Jan 15, 2020 22:54:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Jan 15, 2020 22:54:57 GMT
Yeah that’s a whole thing of “pigs” aren’t necessarily bad or subpar, Thornfall Alliance is. and nothing seems to make that change
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