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Helga2
Feb 7, 2020 11:41:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Azahul on Feb 7, 2020 11:41:15 GMT
Ok, played a game tonight with the new rules. The P+S increase letting me drop the Hermit and accompanying support to get more Valkyries and important solos (Lanyssa and a Dhunian Archon) left the list feeling a good bit better than previously. Helga not needing any set-up from other models before being able to do work was great. Didn't cast Rapport or Primed at all, but I was playing into Lylyth3 so really needed the Fury to avoid dying each turn so it wasn't a great test for that.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Feb 8, 2020 20:37:03 GMT
Post by shmeep on Feb 8, 2020 20:37:03 GMT
come to think of it, is Helga2 really in that bad of a spot? If we compare her to Barnabas2 again, she has a 2 cost spell that gives her entire battlegroup +2' speed - whereas Barnie needs to actually hit a target with Hunter's Mark to get that +2 range extension. Tradeoff is that HM grants free charges, but Helga can get HM from Lanyssa for a total +4', while Barnie can't. Wild Ride also passively gives warbeasts effectively +3 MAT on their first charge attack. Helga passively grants her entire battlegroup pathfinder, Barnie has to pay to upkeep Assail to grant his army pathfinder. Mitigated by the soul slave, but that's still 5 points or a recquisition slow. Helga hits at 14/12 now, 18/16 with Engine, whereas Barnie hits 15/14 or 18/17 at full corpses, +2 if he has death shroud on a target. Both of them really want to run Void Archons, but only Helga gets the full benefit of their DS. Barnie is 13/18, Helga is 14/17, with Battle Host this becomes 14/19, but Barnie has access to swarm/spiny growth for 15/18 or 13/20, with execration he's 17/18 or 15/20 against melee. if he's in star-crossed bubble he can be effectively something like DEF 19, I think. Barnie's feat can allow him to completely wreck a target, but at the cost of his own troops, which makes it far less appealing on attrition. Helga gets +2 focus out of her spell, and a better sprint for everything in her control range. Helga outhreats Barnie by 2' without Engine, 4' with engine. Barnie can pay 2 focus to hand out effectively +2 def against melee attacks in an aura, Helga has exhaust fumes to give concealment for free in a much more limited area.
Feel like I'm missing something here. Helga2 really didn't seem that great in Azahul's batreps, at least pre-buff, but I feel like now Helga's almost as good as Barnie as a work piece, but far more mobile and with more benefits for her army. Is Barnie2 just crap, then? that doesn't seem right either, since he supposedly sees some tourney use.
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Helga2
Feb 9, 2020 0:20:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Feb 9, 2020 0:20:15 GMT
Is Barnie2 just crap, then? that doesn't seem right either, since he supposedly sees some tourney use. I wouldn’t say crap but he’s not the best, but he’s underpowered, and this version of helga seems like a stong contender to push him out. His big tournament use was literally being a frontline dude that rapidly turns difficult to kill, but even there those pairs just... die into some matchups seeing as B2 takes up the Rask/ark slot in a lot of them
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Feb 18, 2020 15:09:01 GMT
Both BLoB and Helga2 are like most minion casters, fine. Nothing impressive, nothing very good, but they work, sort of, ish. It's clear PP don't want minion casters to be on par with other factions casters, I'm guessing there is a reason for that somewhere.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Feb 18, 2020 15:52:25 GMT
Post by shmeep on Feb 18, 2020 15:52:25 GMT
Both BLoB and Helga2 are like most minion casters, fine. Nothing impressive, nothing very good, but they work, sort of, ish. It's clear PP don't want minion casters to be on par with other factions casters, I'm guessing there is a reason for that somewhere. if you look at Azahul's batreps, Arkadius and Sturm are in a pretty good spot. Not as strong as Zaal2 and Harbie in her peak, but definitely not 'not very good'. You are right to some degree about minions in general, I think out of all of the CiD cycles blindwater was the only one that didn't see any models get overtuned to the Nth degree.
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Helga2
Feb 18, 2020 16:04:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Feb 18, 2020 16:04:24 GMT
Both BLoB and Helga2 are like most minion casters, fine. Nothing impressive, nothing very good, but they work, sort of, ish. It's clear PP don't want minion casters to be on par with other factions casters, I'm guessing there is a reason for that somewhere. I’d so heavily disagree with that. I’d say that a hefty chunk of minions casters if played well at a top level can easily put out above a 50% win rate. There’s probably even a handful that can reach the 70%+ rates. We might not be on par with the top 1% competitive casters, but by no means are we below a majority of other faction casters. There’s also just a layer of context that is powerful models surrounding powerful casters. Try a who’s the boss event and minions casters turn oppressive when they get the strong pieces they want. Minions casters just don’t always fully line up or support the minions catalog I’d say is more the issue, but we already knew that by looking at Thornfall
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Post by Azahul on Feb 18, 2020 23:26:39 GMT
I can't speak for the Gator roster, but the only pig Warlock I'd say who has no place in a competitive pair is Helga1. That's not even because she's bad, really. I think she's a solid mid tier Warlock with all the recent tools she's been given. She's just a bit too reliant on the opponent not having specific model types (immune to knockdown/slams/huge bases/etc.) in their pair while not bringing any strong tools that make her a good answer to problems that a main list might otherwise have. I'll rag on Midas forever for being a Warlock I flat out do not enjoy playing, but even he has his moments in the meta. Minions definitely have good Warlocks. I think it's notable that Skorne can bring Minion Warbeasts more freely and give them Paingiver support and I still generally feel Minion Warlocks are better with similar builds.
I think the problem with Minions, such as it is, is that they fall into a really irregular design space. It's not even like our infantry is generally bad, but I know that pigs don't have anything I would describe as an Infantry Warlock and I don't know that Gators do, either. That shepherds us into WWFF, and it can be a little difficult to build a diverse and well-rounded list pair out of one theme force. Not impossible, but tricky for sure.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Helga2
Feb 19, 2020 5:41:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by shmeep on Feb 19, 2020 5:41:22 GMT
Maelok is essentially an infantry caster, but with the introduction of archons he apparently heavily gravitates towards WWFF too. For now minions are slightlty stuck in the same problem mercs had with the old irregulars.
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Helga2
Feb 19, 2020 6:59:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Corrupted Bauer on Feb 19, 2020 6:59:02 GMT
I think though as much as WWFF is kinda like the old irregulars but there’s a big key difference in 90% of the old irregulars lists were the same outside battle groups and casters. There were best in slot things and characters to bring so the same always showed up. Wwff is kinda wild in how varied it still looks and how different it is caster to caster. Rask can still be mr superfriends, ark has his battle group focus, jaga I think I’ve seen literally every solo possible appear at some point with, Maelok is doing fun archon heavy things, Helga with river raider spam to name a few. Irregulars did not have that, so for as much as we run WWFF, I think it’s fine since things aren’t converging within the theme and there’s still so much space to play with
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Helga2
Feb 19, 2020 8:12:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by Azahul on Feb 19, 2020 8:12:55 GMT
It's worth noting that WWFF and present day Irregulars actually have a comparable number of options available in terms of the raw number of model entries, and WWFF has nothing in the realm of line infantry forcing lists towards small model count variations, so there are some marked differences there I think. My original point, setting aside me straight up forgetting the existence of Maelok, was more that Minions are chock full of Warlocks that prefer that kind of build anyway.
If Azazello comes out and has a clear and obvious preference for infantry, I don't know that he'll be able to find a home in WWFF. The same could not be said for infantry Warcasters in Irregulars.
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Helga2
Feb 20, 2020 0:08:27 GMT
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Post by custardboy on Feb 20, 2020 0:08:27 GMT
If they fix bone grinders and make nyss cheaper, Azazello will probably run WWFF too. He won't have any particular design for Farrow infantry, I can almost guarantee it 😅
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Helga2
Feb 20, 2020 1:09:11 GMT
Post by Azahul on Feb 20, 2020 1:09:11 GMT
Even at a lower price, I would usually prefer to be delivering Brigands than Nyss. But it will depend a lot on the totality of his kit. If he's got a lot of high cost spells he needs to cast, or if he lacks any kind of damage buff, then yeah he probably will get pigeon-holed into WWFF in much the same way that I feel that Helga1 and Sturm and Drang get forced into the theme. On the other hand, if he comes out and straight up has Rask's or Vindictus's Feat and maybe Quicken or some other speed boost for infantry, I'd definitely be leaning much more in favour of a Thornfall list over trying to make infantry heavy WWFF happen. Thornfall even has the advantage of not needing a Dynamic Update to function.
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Helga2
Feb 21, 2020 23:25:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by custardboy on Feb 21, 2020 23:25:42 GMT
I'd rather Quicken on a hog instead of either, and Brine would be the number 1. It would be nice to have on brigands in a pinch, but standard targeted spells aren't what we need to make Thornfall work.
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Helga2
Feb 26, 2020 20:46:33 GMT
Post by Azahul on Feb 26, 2020 20:46:33 GMT
Looks like Helga's rules are up in the Card Database, unchanged from her second iteration.
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Post by Azahul on Feb 27, 2020 0:01:35 GMT
Ok, so, with the release of her rules, I was mucking around making some different lists and ended up with this piece of weirdness:
[Helga 2] Helga on Wheels [+28] - War Hog [14] - War Hog [14] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Bone Shrine [2] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Dhunian Archon [0(6)] Gremlin Swarm [3] Gremlin Swarm [3] Rorsh [15] Underchief Mire [4] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] Void Archon [8] Void Archon [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8]
Yeah, ok, so there are some obvious flaws. Helga's at real risk of running out of transfer targets and has a hard time getting her Battle Host armour buff, that's the big one. It's a bit of a shame that there are only two models to benefit from Wild Ride too, since that's a big selling point of her kit. No hit fixing for Brine is also a little problematic, you might occasionally lose because you need 6s to hit Def 12 and dice just are not being your friend.
All of that said, there are some strong benefits to this list. The double Dhunian Archons seem pretty generally useful in this list, whether preserving Shield Guards for turn after turn, allowing the lessers to spend to zero Fury while still effectively "camping", or making the Gremlin Swarms incredibly sticky and annoying as contesting pieces or as landing zone blockers. Rorsh and Brine offer a longer threat range (matching Helga's own) and higher output than any Road Hog could manage, and they have the benefit of not being anchored to Helga's 12" control or relying on Battle Host being up for their threat range. Mire can help keep Helga safe turn-to-turn, and not relying on Primal for damage maximises the utility of Helga's Feat.
The trick, I think, will be preserving the War Hogs as effectively mid-late game pieces so that Helga doesn't become too vulnerable too quickly. I think that should be possible with the sheer quantity of defensive tech lying around, but there are certain lists that won't care (anything with a lot of sprays or magical attacks) and it will be a bit easy I think to just lose, at least in early games.
Still, I like the look of it on paper enough that I think this is what I'll be putting on the table next.
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