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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 6, 2019 21:07:54 GMT
I do like your Horse Lord list. I don’t play Z2 so don’t have any thoughts here. I do play a fair amount of Sorscha 3, and I’m having a hard time seeing her as your solution to armor cracking. You’re counting on two Forge Seers to unlock your list which seems incredibly risky. I don’t understand why you didn’t fit in at least one MOW unit, some Tankers, or Drakhuns. I guess what I’m saying is that I think playing her in Wolves is a trap, and would just keep her in her native theme.
Perhaps if they had Irregulars [Man-O-War Solos] on her card, that’d be OK. Damn, that’d actually be really good.
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Post by hamicron on Sept 6, 2019 21:52:52 GMT
I do like your Horse Lord list. I don’t play Z2 so don’t have any thoughts here. I do play a fair amount of Sorscha 3, and I’m having a hard time seeing her as your solution to armor cracking. You’re counting on two Forge Seers to unlock your list which seems incredibly risky. I don’t understand why you didn’t fit in at least one MOW unit, some Tankers, or Drakhuns. I guess what I’m saying is that I think playing her in Wolves is a trap, and would just keep her in her native theme. Perhaps if they had Irregulars [Man-O-War Solos] on her card, that’d be OK. Damn, that’d actually be really good. To be fair two large glasses of wine and 30 minutes to the list deadline may have had something to do with it 😅 But WoW provides damage buffs, accuracy buffs and additional focus. Not really relying on flank to do the business apart from maybe in the end game. I probably should have tried to fit some Jacks with guns in though to have at least a little more ranged pressure. But it’s mainly a scare list as the focus is on playing Horses
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 7, 2019 2:53:12 GMT
Appreciate booze’s impact on list building!
A scare list...for Hordes... Hmmm... I’m pretty sure Legion cares not at all about Sorscha’s cloudwall?
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Post by hamicron on Sept 7, 2019 5:21:30 GMT
So it’s not so much Legion (which I think honestly think Horses can handle and also seems to have largely disappeared as a major faction around here) but things like double colossals, Skorne or Troll bricks, massive based shooting or casters like Karchev that are just too tough for Z2 or Vlad to assassinate reliably.
Now obviously the sensible option is something more like Old Witch 2, Vlad1 or Strakhov 1. But I don’t get to play as much as I’d like so too much choice tends to send me into a Rube Goldberg machine hell. Think nearly every game I’ve lost with OW2 has been due to the clock.
So a simple tough face beater list with a straightforward application (while not being too boring; sorry V1). So Karchev, one of the Butchers or S3. Karchev nearly had it but I preferred the additional speed of Stokes the Fires.
Then we bump up against what’s in my collection so AK is out as I don’t have Tankers at this point which I think you need to unlock the theme really. So I’m essentially abandoning flank in exchange for other wizardly buffs in WoW. Then we just load up on as many jacks as I could fit in and rely on the good old piece trade to leave me with the advantage.
Plus two larges wines to this thought process!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 24, 2019 1:07:28 GMT
OK, so maybe (just maybe) I can make it into the game store this Thursday and want to try a WotoF list. I’m thinking this:
Theme: Warriors of the Old Faith 75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey - WJ: +27 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27)
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 Menite Archon - PC: 8 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Flame Bringers or Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 (which one?!?) Iron Fang Uhlans - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
My Flame Bringers are, as yet, purchased but not assembled but I could proxy with the Outriders. Which one is better?
I was originally thinking a Grolar instead of the Gun Carraige, but I’m really enjoying the idea of getting the Judicator up field 14” on turn 1 and presenting a dilemma - if you get high value warrior models near the Judicator, he’ll be Murderous. If you stay cagey, I can hot swap HoF.
HoF seems really good on all of my infantry options, the Judicator, and the Gun Carraige. The GC solves the problem of ambushers, far zones, and needing to somehow try and keep your jacks up with the rest of your force (which you can do easily with one SPD 5 jack with Infernal Machine plus guns).
What do you think?
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Post by michael on Sept 24, 2019 4:00:16 GMT
The Outriders give you more flexibility. You lose practically nothing in melee (under the assumption that they’re charging) but you pick up the spells and whatnot.
That’s my take, anyway.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 24, 2019 11:07:42 GMT
The Outriders give you more flexibility. You lose practically nothing in melee (under the assumption that they’re charging) but you pick up the spells and whatnot. That’s my take, anyway. Annoying that they don’t have native battle wizard.
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Post by hamicron on Sept 24, 2019 15:23:49 GMT
I think I’d take the Outriders over the Flame Bringers. Turn 1 put HoF on them and Infernal Machine on the Judi. Turn 2 the Outriders should have some targets to spray down before you swap HoF across to the Judicator.
Also gives you more flex playing into stuff that prevents charges. That’s just my gut feeling as I’ve not had a chance to run Flame Bringers on the table yet.
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Post by auraco on Sept 24, 2019 18:20:12 GMT
I think I’d take the Outriders over the Flame Bringers. Turn 1 put HoF on them and Infernal Machine on the Judi. Turn 2 the Outriders should have some targets to spray down before you swap HoF across to the Judicator. Also gives you more flex playing into stuff that prevents charges. That’s just my gut feeling as I’ve not had a chance to run Flame Bringers on the table yet. This is my feeling too about taking outriders over flame bringers. It also gives more magic attack and spot removal to a list that doesn't necessarely have a lot of either.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 25, 2019 18:55:42 GMT
So one jack I haven't seen anybody talk about in this thread yet is the dervish. If you're considering using mad dogs you may want to look at the little stab bot instead.
Parry, side step and native spd5 are great and he starts at P+S13 with a possible pow 17 combo strike. Under Feora3, choir and a hermit he can get up to P+S21 (25 combo strike). That's a really efficient bot for counter punching on feat turn or initiating with to kick off the piece trading (wouldn't count on the hermit or incite for initiation strikes though so *only* P+S 17 with a P+S 21 combo strike).
With vlad3 flamebringers are also incredibly sweet for 10" sprint with parry. Weapon masters get really scary even at low pows with a spell like hand of fate on them. Admittedly I like them better with Kreoss3 for the straight up damage buff though given that they already have parry and side step naturally.
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Post by Havock on Sept 26, 2019 6:43:27 GMT
The whatsit light with the double fire melee attacks is also nice; you can do the same bouncing around as the Dervish under feat and then do something stupid like sprinting into the enemy caster and setting it on fire.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 26, 2019 20:23:43 GMT
The whatsit light with the double fire melee attacks is also nice; you can do the same bouncing around as the Dervish under feat and then do something stupid like sprinting into the enemy caster and setting it on fire. You mean the Purifier? The one with the flails? Yeah its looks pretty sweet, also has beat back for more movment. The Castigator looks also pretty nice for similar reasons. Two open fists that set things on fire and a fire fart to boot. Question: Can you use Combustion after charging?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 27, 2019 2:09:55 GMT
Yea! I got to the game store for the first time since GenCon. Nice to see the gang and get in a friendly game (no clock, casual rewinds). I played this:
Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey - WJ: +27 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 Menite Archon - PC: 8 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Iron Fang Uhlans - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
My opponent played Lucas with 4 jacks (including the arc node), double storm troopers, a dragons breath, hutchuck, combat Alchemists, and some additional random support. We played the scenario with two vertically oriented rectangle zones. I won the roll.
Turn 1. I run up to jam and dominate scenario. HoF on the Uhlans, who are in range of his ranged stuff. Cast Dash and Infernal Machine on the Judy. He moves up tentatively, keeping valuable pieces away from the Judicator (who ran 14”), and puts a ton of chip damage into the Uhlans killing 2.
Turn 2 I consider feating, but I want to leave the 3 Uhlans behind as jammers on his ranged stuff. I charge in the Uhlans into his infantry, and swap HoF onto the Outriders, who then spray down his infantry (and getting nice chip damage on Lukas). The outriders were serious MVPs, but I’ll say POW 12 HoF impact attacks on ARM 16 multi wound models is still really good. The Judy (with 3 focus, cause, Vassals) and Gun Carraige unload their guns. By the end of the round over 2/3 of his warrior models are dead, with a fair amount of chip damage into his jacks. My opponent decides his only chance is assassination. He kills some jamming models and gets his arc node into place to Force Hammer an Outrider into Vlad, followed by a spells and guns. The Hermit and my 2 camp ensures this is the longest of Hail Mary shots. He does not score. He uses the rest of his army to clear out about half my Cavalry.
I score 1 (my flag) on his turn.
Turn 3 I start the turn with 3 HoF Outriders, my (undamaged) Gun Carraige, the Archon, and the Judicator with Infernal Machine within spray or charge range of his caster who is sting on a zero camp. Game Over. Victory Khador.
If his caster had played more tentatively and not gone for the assassination, it would have been hard for him to come back from my attrition advantage, and I’m pretty sure I could have cleared both zones and killed his objective. Having the Judy so far up the board, as well as the Archon and an undamaged Gun Carraige, left me in a strong position to score 4 on his turn. If not 4, then I’d still be 4-0 with a very strong attrition advantage.
Thoughts...
I really like this theme. I thought the Judicator would be a lot less relevant because almost his entire army was immune to fire. But, a SPD 7, POW 23 colossal with boosted dice against warrior models is...well...good. The Rockets are randomly good. The cheap and free support staff in this army is really boss. As we all know, Hand of Fated Outriders are AMAZING. The Uhlans were good, but could be swapped out for Flame Bringers (freeing up 3 points for something else), or Vengers (which I don’t own). The Gun Carraige is great, and a super good compliment to the Judicator due its speed with a randomly great ranged threat. So many things in this list love HoF, you can always hot swap it and get good use out of twice per turn.
Gotta play this theme again. I really liked the basic design set up of the list. My opponent and I were talking about list design and the current meta at the end of the game, and having fast models with long threat ranges seems to be an outsized advantage nowadays. Secondarily, lists that play scenario hard are also at an advantage. This list, or one like it (swapping out the Uhlans for flame bringers) does that well. Two very fast anchor pieces to score square zones, fast and hard hitting units backed up by Choir for circle zones, and a ton of solos some of whom really don’t mind camping flags.
I like it.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 27, 2019 4:55:40 GMT
a SPD 7, POW 23 colossal with boosted dice against warrior models is...well...good. Nice write up, it's really cool to see Vlad3 owning. Just to be clear, Murderous only gives an additional die on MELEE attack rolls against warrior models.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 27, 2019 10:54:32 GMT
Yes, you’re right on Muderous, of course . The use of the spell in this matchup was the speed bonus, and knowing that the Judicator would be able to completely OWN Lukas in a caster assassination situation. Before the matchup, I really thought I’d be hot swapping HoF over to the Judicator, but too much of his stuff was immune to fire and the spell was more useful elsewhere. That said, keeping SPD 7 up on the Judicator put this gigantic 12” no-go-zone In the middle of the board for his jacks. Once his caster violated that red zone, I knew I felt confident I would be able to kill his caster even if he put in a few jamming models. If a couple of jacks got too close, I could also hot swap HoF and one round half his Battlegroup without even straining Vlad’s focus.
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