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Post by auraco on May 26, 2019 2:29:30 GMT
I feel like the Minifeat of the Cinerators would be great on one of the infantry units. Also I doubt PP would be willing to add Iron Fang shooting models for fluff reasons. Iron Fangs are old fashioned knights using old fashioned weapons in an old fashioned fighting style. The hight of innovation for them was to add blasting heads to their pikes and lances because somebody told them regular pikes are ineffective against 5 ton steel monsters. You do realize the regulard pikemen CA was the original model with the Cinerator mini feat?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on May 26, 2019 11:46:32 GMT
I feel like the Minifeat of the Cinerators would be great on one of the infantry units. Also I doubt PP would be willing to add Iron Fang shooting models for fluff reasons. Iron Fangs are old fashioned knights using old fashioned weapons in an old fashioned fighting style. The hight of innovation for them was to add blasting heads to their pikes and lances because somebody told them regular pikes are ineffective against 5 ton steel monsters. You do realize the regulard pikemen CA was the original model with the Cinerator mini feat? I do not I'm afraid. That was probably before I started playing the game. I have only a vague idea what MKII looked like actually.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 26, 2019 12:09:23 GMT
I have only a vague idea what MKII looked like actually. MkII had less jacks, more colossals, and a greater variety of units in any given list.
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Post by borderprince on May 26, 2019 12:26:20 GMT
Maybe change Black Dragons into a defensive unit. Native tough and set defence. Lower the pow of their spears by one. Give them sturdy so they can't be pushed. I'd agree with something like that. The veteran wall on which the enemy breaks. Keep their pikes as is, but add set defence (although I wonder whether they still need basic DEF13 for that to be worthwhile in the current game, where MAT7 is rather more prevalent than in Mk2) + Tough. UA adds Tactics:Sturdy and maybe change the mini-feat to grant Carapace (they fight in the shade!)? That would give potential ARM22 against shooting for one turn.
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Post by Havock on May 27, 2019 5:09:53 GMT
I think the best thing to do would be to drop the cost to a level where you can actually field more than two max units and some Uhlans.
I'm okay with them being better-than-average but at least give us the bodies to properly trade with, 19+ points for a full unit with UA is too much.
Also, the Bears need Flank (Iron Fang)
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Post by hocestbellum on May 27, 2019 7:41:59 GMT
I actually somewhat disagree with the idea of dropping their points; the game is replete with 10-man infantry squads with similar stats, and they mostly cost between 14 and 16 for a full unit. Vanilla IFP actually look pretty good compared to their peers, since they have the top end of each stat: All the Stormguard are slower, precursors have no reach, HG Halbs and Fennblades have MAT6, and so on.
I'd be fine with the UA dropping to 3, though. In a lot of cases I think them costing 4 is just a holdover from Mk2 where they all cost 2. But nowadays there's not a lot of use to a Standard Bearer because there are no command checks, so you're really paying 4 for the leader.
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Post by auraco on May 27, 2019 10:16:05 GMT
I actually somewhat disagree with the idea of dropping their points; the game is replete with 10-man infantry squads with similar stats, and they mostly cost between 14 and 16 for a full unit. Vanilla IFP actually look pretty good compared to their peers, since they have the top end of each stat: All the Stormguard are slower, precursors have no reach, HG Halbs and Fennblades have MAT6, and so on. I'd be fine with the UA dropping to 3, though. In a lot of cases I think them costing 4 is just a holdover from Mk2 where they all cost 2. But nowadays there's not a lot of use to a Standard Bearer because there are no command checks, so you're really paying 4 for the leader. You're also compairing them to units that haven't been in CID and that really don't see the table, not sure it's a good way to look at them. I mean when was the last time you actually saw stormguard perform well in a competitive setting?
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Post by michael on May 27, 2019 13:54:36 GMT
Seconding auraco. Cross-faction comparisons are kind of irrelevant here. I was listing suggestions that would make me reach for Legion of Steel over any of our other themes. Claws of the Dragon is a great template for how to make Legion function well.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 27, 2019 18:05:37 GMT
Ok, it it just me? I don’t like playing legion of steel because the pikes get tangled up with the models, so I have a really hard time moving my army around.
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Post by sand20go on May 27, 2019 18:33:53 GMT
Seconding auraco. Cross-faction comparisons are kind of irrelevant here. I was listing suggestions that would make me reach for Legion of Steel over any of our other themes. Claws of the Dragon is a great template for how to make Legion function well. +1. That is their challenge. Doomies are 1.67 points per model. Vanilla are 19 for 11 models with a weapon and a SB. We will be generous and call it 19/12 or 1.58. So just a TAD cheaper but the free stuff gets screwed up with your 19 point package. Same speed. Same Reach. A bit more hitting power on the doomies and no pathfinder. Probably better survivability to blast but without universal AD you are only getting the same board position with a unit as you do with the doomies. No Spray ponies. Innate tough. There are probably some very specialized match ups (Cockatrices?), Imperatus for the knockdown and precision strike, Strakov2 where it would be good to have them. But generally if you want to run melee infantry right now it is doomies all the way. PS. I DO wonder about OW2 in Legion. Sprays still awful but arguably it is a match up where your opponent has to come to you and, in that case, having 6 countercharging models which likely have precision strike and weapon master feels...well....good. Sadly no A&H but there are now, finally, options - for example..... conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0yhzdZkWnjdidijynv7H7I7H7I7KntKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Legion of Steel [Old Witch 2] Zevanna Agha, the Fate Keeper [+27] - Grolar [18] - Juggernaut [13] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Iron Fang Kovnik [4] Kapitan Sofya Skirova [0(5)] Steelhead Arcanist [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Uhlans (max) [20] Steelhead Mortar Crew [5] Grolar there to benefit from Dual attack and Guidance. So at least you are not totally screwed. Ditto the VERY expensive 9 point merc package. (Maybe you don't do that and bring Bears?) No Markov which I don't like cause there is a benefit to being able to move through stuff. Thoughts?
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Post by auraco on May 27, 2019 20:40:06 GMT
I tried OW2 in legion of steel, and I don’t really see the point of taking her in that theme over just taking wolves instead. The fact that she debuffs enemy models instead of buffing friendly means she has ways to help spall warded reavers. To me the caster that gets the most out of legion of steel is Strakhov2, since he has some good buffs that couldn’t be applied to doom reavers. Other than Strakhov2 tho I don’t see many casters getting more out of Legion of steel than out of wolves of winter.
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Post by borderprince on May 28, 2019 5:24:12 GMT
I'd agree that Wolves just seems to be the better theme (which shouldn't really be surprising, given it has shiny new toys, went through CID and has a wider range of model types).
Purely to throw something out there, Iron Fangs generally are meant to train to use their pikes to take down big dangerous targets. Would giving a melee equivalent of the Burst Fire ability (+1 damage vs medium bases, +2 damages vs large bases) give them more of a niche as the anti-armor warrior theme? It would put their basic output as more or less the same as a Doomreaver against heavies but with CMA and the ability to take buffs. Could be a theme rule, or one of the buffs from UAs or support solos. Call if "Big Game Hunters", "Tactics: The Bigger They Are..." or something else. Could even use it to differentiate the BDs and the regular pikemen.
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Post by auraco on May 28, 2019 11:43:29 GMT
I'd agree that Wolves just seems to be the better theme (which shouldn't really be surprising, given it has shiny new toys, went through CID and has a wider range of model types).
Purely to throw something out there, Iron Fangs generally are meant to train to use their pikes to take down big dangerous targets. Would giving a melee equivalent of the Burst Fire ability (+1 damage vs medium bases, +2 damages vs large bases) give them more of a niche as the anti-armor warrior theme? It would put their basic output as more or less the same as a Doomreaver against heavies but with CMA and the ability to take buffs. Could be a theme rule, or one of the buffs from UAs or support solos. Call if "Big Game Hunters", "Tactics: The Bigger They Are..." or something else. Could even use it to differentiate the BDs and the regular pikemen.
It would be interesting, but I'm not sure how much it would change, the problem with legion of steel at the moment is that pikemen are expansive and easy to kill, adjusting point cost to allow to ring more or just giving them defensive tech that helps them survive would be a better incentive to play the theme.
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Post by sand20go on May 28, 2019 16:00:08 GMT
that pikemen are expansive and easy to kill, Can we unpack this a bit more? Because if you think that Pikes are easy to kill you should thing Doomies are eas(ier) to kill - trading a point of defense for a point of Armor (and then a couple of defensive pieces of tech like Shield wall/iron Zeal).
I think it more accurate to say that Doomies have simply better output as melee infantry _AND_ critically - one unit gets an extra 2 inches from apparate. Meanwhile, if you want to go "slow and hard to kill" you can reach for shocktroopers/democorp - who while giving up VOLUME of attack are much more survivable on the approach, hit a point harder, and get access to the tanker and oppression tanker. While they are only speed 4 innately they are always bringing at least 1 kovnik.
The trick is figuring out a niche between AC and Wolves -
1) Provide them some anti-shooting tech so now they would become your "anti-shooting" drop. One possibility would be to give them innate forcebarrier (or something akin to that) with the IFK. Carapace feels oppressive because how it could be stacked with Iron Flesh and Iron Zeal but something that moved them from def 12 to Def 14 against shooting in a faction with very limited access to shield guards feels "OK".
2) Give them a specialized role (akin to Devil Dogs) against EITHER Jacks OR Huge Bases. THey suddenly become a pretty interesting drop if, for example, they got a seige weapon - or if the pike was auto knockdown against non warrior models. IN other words, Wolves becomes a great drop against dudes but struggles a bit against high armor. This would suffer from ranged dudes but be great into boxes.
3)
I don't think you can make them "cheap" because WG really is our spam list (I gotta run Stalingrad before the summer is out).
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Post by michael on May 28, 2019 16:08:54 GMT
I would situate Legion of Steel as the “mobile survivable” list. Wolves is fast but fragile, Armored Corps is very durable but relatively plodding, and WGK is “die in droves” shooting. Legion of Steel could slot in with a bunch of flexible movement abilities (Defensive Formation, Repo on the cavalry/etc., Countercharge, add other abilities to taste) combined with reasonably solid DEF and ARM stats for single wound infantry, and precision damage (Precision Strike, etc.).
Toss in some more give in point costs (enough to match Claws of the Dragon’s flexibility) and some access to generic Khador units like Widowmakers, and you would have a theme that I think carves a solid niche without stepping on Wolves or AC.
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