smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156 
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Post by smoth on May 23, 2019 0:00:39 GMT
Why are black dragons 2 more points than the standard unit?
The command attachment is where the abilities come from.
The kovnik grants precision strike, so to not take standard ifps +kovnik would be less efficient when you look at it also adding not sleeping...
It seems a bad decision to ever take black dragons
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 23, 2019 0:08:03 GMT
I mean truely, you are taking ifp for legion of steel you would be (likely) taking kovniks for free anyway..
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Post by anderfreak on May 23, 2019 0:53:23 GMT
Yeah, Legion of Steel and especially black dragons need an overhaul.
So I guess the answer to "why?", is "no reason, just are."
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Post by auraco on May 23, 2019 2:40:17 GMT
I mean even regular pikemen feel overpriced at 19 for the full unit when you compare them to anything that has been in CID, so the cost difference is from the transition from mk2 to mk3.
I mean Black dragon getting sidestep when they have only one attack, just why?
Legion of steel needs an overhaul just like anderfreak said, it's pretty much just that. If you want to play a ton of dude, wolves is there for you and just better at it.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 23, 2019 10:29:36 GMT
Black Dragons cost more than Iron Fangs because they have identical stats, plus additional abilities. Very useful abilities! Unfortunately they're so useful they've been made widely available in the theme anyway. They suffer because the Iron Fang UA is great, and the Black Dragon UA is... not. If you could take the Iron Fang UA on Black Dragons, I would genuinely reach for them first. But when all is said and done, they don't distinguish themselves sufficiently from the normal ones, and now the Doom Reavers dropped so much in cost Legion lost its main niche. The only thing that's really different is the Cavalry, but Doom Reavers with Apparition are as fast as the Cavalry anyway! On the wish-listing side of things, I'd love to see a Legion rework. There's so much design space up for grabs. - Get rid of that stupid merc unit restriction
- Put some shooting options in there (Assault Kommandos, if they can make them not suck)
- Making Black Dragons distinct from the Iron Fangs
- Remove the overlaps with the Kovniks and existing abilities
- Change the theme benefits; make the first one 'Units with Shield Wall', or just change both.
And that's without releasing any new models! But what it really needs is a way to be distinct from Wolves, and I think that is best approached by introducing more shooting options. Assault Kommandos is one option, new Weapon Crews for IFP (Bolt thrower that launches exploding spears?), or just a decent ranged unit. Making Legion a more balanced theme (a la Armoured Corps) would only help it in the long run.
There's a nice symmetry to it, too. Jaws is Jacks, WGK is Ranged troops, Wolves is Melee troops, Armoured Corps is both but slow and multiwound, Legion could be both but fast and single wound.
But even if that was on the cards, I doubt we'll see it for years with the rates of CID
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 23, 2019 10:57:53 GMT
hocestbellum, I believe Legion of Steel is a ‘question list’. And, the question being asked is, “Why the hell did you pack that theme force in your bag?” Valid answers: - I’m playing Champions. - I don’t own a lot of other models, so this is the theme I can field with the stuff I own. Can’t really think of other answers now that we have Wolves.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 23, 2019 11:31:12 GMT
I don't believe Champions actually forces you to take two lists, so even that isn't a valid excuse!
But the second one is fair enough; it's why I play Legion over Wolves. I have no inclination to buy more Doom Reavers
I think a fully painted Legion force is also more aesthetically pleasing than most of our other options.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on May 23, 2019 11:32:15 GMT
I'd have the black dragons drop shield wall and give them a shield (+2 ARM on front arc) and wall of steel (+2 ARM when B2B).
Becoming generally faster than normal iron fangs along with having a slightly higher base ARM of 16 as opposed to 14.
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Post by elricaltovilla on May 23, 2019 11:49:19 GMT
hocestbellum, I believe Legion of Steel is a ‘question list’. And, the question being asked is, “Why the hell did you pack that theme force in your bag?” Valid answers: - I’m playing Champions. - I don’t own a lot of other models, so this is the theme I can field with the stuff I own. Can’t really think of other answers now that we have Wolves. Or you built a maximum jank Karchev list where every model has countercharge. |
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 23, 2019 12:08:03 GMT
yeah, it is a mess, i hope they get to looking at it,
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Post by michael on May 23, 2019 12:43:19 GMT
I’m pretty sure the reason for Sidestep was “they can charge in and make a bunch of attacks and pseudo-reform out of the way to clear the way for other models to attack! Yeah!” ...but somebody forgot that Uhlan Kovnik Markov and Irusk2 existed, and that Reposition was a thing.  |
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Post by auraco on May 23, 2019 13:30:53 GMT
I’m pretty sure the reason for Sidestep was “they can charge in and make a bunch of attacks and pseudo-reform out of the way to clear the way for other models to attack! Yeah!” ...but somebody forgot that Uhlan Kovnik Markov and Irusk2 existed, and that Reposition was a thing. Yeah reposition is just superior to sidestep for models with one attack like them. At this point I just prefer Ulhans, they come with build in reposition and don't drop to victim stats when they charge. |
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Post by steeltitan on May 23, 2019 13:52:42 GMT
In the "cygnar pow 10" era, Im sure IFP or BD had a reason for being the points they are but (and my regular matchups might cloud my judgement) as it stands now their ARM, even in shield wall, doesnt mean anything.
I am about to finish painting my LoS list and I agree that visually its one of the coolest uniform looking armies but it feels kinda shit to paint an army for the storage box.
Not sure what can be changed or added to make it viable but i love to imagine that one day its not bad. IFP need a major point reduction or need way more ARM (thinking about ARM 24 or whatever they have mini feat sentinels) to survive the approach. Ideally the latter to make them different from doom reavers.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 23, 2019 14:00:50 GMT
My beef with the Uhlans is that once they've charged, their horses are better combatants than they are... Stupid Lance rule. P14 Brutal Charge, drop Lance and Pommel Strike, done.
ARM wise, I could see an argument being made for Iron Fangs to become 12/15 with Shield Wall. All that plate and shield is only granting them 1 ARM over a WGI as it stands!
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Post by michael on May 23, 2019 18:25:22 GMT
I think the problem is simply one of cost. Legion of Steel doesn’t hold a candle to Claws of the Dragon. Why? Because Claws of the Dragon allowed us another full IFP unit for the same point cost army (let us assume that MK II 50 points = MK III 75 points, for argument’s sake).
I ran Claws with 3 full units of IFP+CA (pick your mix of flavors), plus full Uhlans, plus solos, and sometimes had points to spare. It’s simply impossible to do that in Legion.
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