Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 8, 2019 16:53:24 GMT
Current CID has Khador listed with Legos and Wolves as legal pairs for Champions.
Having double Melee lists, where Wolves seems to out class Legion, is kinda shaky.
So, what do you guys think?
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Post by auraco on May 8, 2019 17:11:03 GMT
I agree. Both are very similar and don’t help cover each other’s weakness the way pretty much any other of our theme would.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 8, 2019 17:20:19 GMT
At the two extremes we have Z_2 Magic Slingers and Strakhov_2 Arm Skew-ish, which are admittedly very janky casters. The Vlad_2, OW_2 pairing is a strong one, but both rather run Wolves,. Which begs the questions "who gets saddled with Legion?"
I guess there's a case to be made for Strakhov, ARM 20 Pikemen and Speed 10 Uhlans can be fun, but do they cover Wolves in a significant way?
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Post by auraco on May 8, 2019 17:27:19 GMT
At the two extremes we have Z_2 Magic Slingers and Strakhov_2 Arm Skew-ish, which are admittedly very janky casters. The Vlad_2, OW_2 pairing is a strong one, but both rather run Wolves,. Which begs the questions "who gets saddled with Legion?" I guess there's a case to be made for Strakhov, ARM 20 Pikemen and Speed 10 Uhlans can be fun, but do they cover Wolves in a significant way? Strakhov2 is my favorite caster to run legion of steel, but even I have to argue that it just doesn't compare well to Vlad2 Wolves of winter. The problem with the current season ADR is just that the Wolves list completely overshadows the legion of steel list. When looking at what the other faction can field I don't see a lof of place where Vlad2 Wolves wouldn't just outperform legion of steel run by any other caster.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 8, 2019 19:12:55 GMT
Take Malakov in Hearts of Darkness instead. Is that allowed? Or does he count as Infernal for that?
If not, I guess you'll just have to hope you don't meet Cygnar; between Hayley3 Gravediggers and more-or-less anyone in Storm Division they've got our number. And Ret, with both the Dawnmower and the MHSF. Or Legion with the Thrones... Honestly, there's a lot of infantry mulchers in that list.
You could just use Kozlov with Legion and try for the Blitzkrieg. Threat 13-15 on the IFP and Uhlans, Reposition for more jamming. I don't think it would work, but who knows?
EDIT: Heh, one of the Circle warlocks is not a legal choice in one of their themes; Grayle can't be in Secret Masters. Silliness
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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2019 19:30:00 GMT
I think the argument is that you are list locked Strakov2 with then a Wolves pairing (OW2 to hurt Haley3?). Probably double black dragons to get them under feat up to Arm 25 (27 with IR). That weathers out all but the most oppressive of shooting (with DBR hit dice -9 against the ice spray from a Railless. It MIGHT work. You would then LS and CMA to try to kill important things.
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Post by auraco on May 8, 2019 19:30:01 GMT
Take Malakov in Hearts of Darkness instead. Is that allowed? Or does he count as Infernal for that? If not, I guess you'll just have to hope you don't meet Cygnar; between Hayley3 Gravediggers and more-or-less anyone in Storm Division they've got our number. And Ret, with both the Dawnmower and the MHSF. Or Legion with the Thrones... Honestly, there's a lot of infantry mulchers in that list. You could just use Kozlov with Legion and try for the Blitzkrieg. Threat 13-15 on the IFP and Uhlans, Reposition for more jamming. I don't think it would work, but who knows? EDIT: Heh, one of the Circle warlocks is not a legal choice in one of their themes; Grayle can't be in Secret Masters. Silliness Heart of Darkness is just an infernal theme, we can't take a list in heart of darkness in khador even if run by Malakov.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 8, 2019 19:41:10 GMT
I wouldn't mind the pairing if we were allowed to double down on Themes. Vlad_2/OW_2 under Wolves cover each other way better than any other pairing that includes LegOS
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Post by hocestbellum on May 8, 2019 21:32:21 GMT
My greater concern is the SR changes; there's a scenario with a zone 30" from your board edge. Any thing less than a SPD6 model cannot make it into that zone before scoring starts. I guess the idea is to make it easier to jam your opponent out of the near zone? Seems a bit pointless.
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Post by Havock on May 8, 2019 21:35:35 GMT
Vlad2 Wolves for punchy, OW2 Legion against shooty?
Its a pretty trash combination.
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Post by michael on May 8, 2019 23:15:12 GMT
I am left scratching my head!
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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2019 23:26:08 GMT
My greater concern is the SR changes; there's a scenario with a zone 30" from your board edge. Any thing less than a SPD6 model cannot make it into that zone before scoring starts. I guess the idea is to make it easier to jam your opponent out of the near zone? Seems a bit pointless.
I think 2 of the scenarios are going to be "hard" for Khador. That one (Bunker) because it is going to reward tanky speedy solos that can make it there.
The other one I worry about is the one with the two rectangle zones dead center. You CANNOT get a Khador Jack there top of 2 without running 2 turns unless you have somethking like Hark's speed buff or Vlad1s feat.. That, I would submit, is a Dead Khador jack as faster armies will simply set up to wack you hard as nails.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on May 8, 2019 23:57:29 GMT
My greater concern is the SR changes; there's a scenario with a zone 30" from your board edge. Any thing less than a SPD6 model cannot make it into that zone before scoring starts. I guess the idea is to make it easier to jam your opponent out of the near zone? Seems a bit pointless.
I think 2 of the scenarios are going to be "hard" for Khador. That one (Bunker) because it is going to reward tanky speedy solos that can make it there.
The other one I worry about is the one with the two rectangle zones dead center. You CANNOT get a Khador Jack there top of 2 without running 2 turns unless you have somethking like Hark's speed buff or Vlad1s feat.. That, I would submit, is a Dead Khador jack as faster armies will simply set up to wack you hard as nails.
What about a Kodiak? It runs 10"
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 9, 2019 0:15:43 GMT
Hot takes. (I put up a longer post on the CID forums here: cid.privateerpress.com/forum/theorycrafting-listbuilding/t-l-steamroller-2019-week-1/131134-legion-and-wolves-in-adr1) The Kodiak’s stock went up. 2) Casters like Butcher 3 who can extend the threat ranges of battle groups went up. 3) For that matter, WGK with Butcher 3, a Gun Carraige and Sorshcha 0 is looking really good for me right now. Small control range casters without a battle engine, jack marshall or journeyman can be sad. I think Butcher is going to really like re-rolls. 4) We still need buff solos who can get upfield and score flags. Quad tankers are looking good. Fenris and Alexia 2 are both looking better to support a Wolves list. 5) The ADR just seems aweful. This is helpful for me, since I was wondering whether to play in the Masters or Champions tournament at GenCon (no, I won’t do both), and this just makes that decision super easy. 6) Maybe Kossites will finally be a “thing”. Questions... A) Does this new set of scenarios make Jaws better because of the anti-ambush and ability to grab Kossites (shudder), or another ambushing merc solo? B) What are your current thoughts on pairing? I think Wolves is still really good with the new set of scenarios, and is still good with the existing set. Also I'm having a blast with my Wolves, so I think they'll stay in my pairing for now. The question is...add what? ...Armored Korp covers Wolves' weaknesses well and the tankers are boss. For me that's probably Vlad 2 or Sorscha 3. S3 likes the extra jack but the control range is an issue. Vlad 2 would appreciate a Chariot, but that would mean finishing assembling and painting. Hmm... ...Or, Jaws or Armor heavyish Winterguard. Butcher 3 for either one, or Karchev for a more streamlined travel bag. I could see resurrecting Vlad 1 for WGK but darn it I do have fun with the other 2 casters.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 9, 2019 7:51:01 GMT
I don't think it helps Jaws at all; its big weakness is scenario play due to low speed, and now there are more scenarios in which speed is critical. Also, we traditionally have the low end of focus scores, so the new scenario where we have to spread our jacks across the board is going to be a nightmare.
So despite the Ambush gimmick, I think Jaws is in a worse position.
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