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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 23, 2017 7:51:03 GMT
Agree to disagree. Warmachine has better rules and models. I'm not letting this slide. By Raw Power, being able to cast spells, and have your Warnoun do stuff is better then it all coming out of the same pool, especially when that pool size is of comparable size. Is your argument that if a Juggernaught was Controlled by Krueger 2 for Instance (Lets say fury stat 4) then it wouldn't trample all over Kharchev with the same Jack? I completely disagree. If the Juggernaut was a beast, it would be overpowered - at least, one juggernaut would be overpowered. Two juggernauts would be overpowered. But that level of overpoweredness would never reach critical mass, because after you have more than two heavies, (or 1 for some casters) you stop being able to manage all of the fury they generate. A hordes caster running a juggernaut spam list would get 1 turn to destroy the enemy army (which wouldn't happen, given the inherent limits of the juggernaut chassis - low speed, no way to independently increase threat.) After that, all but 2 (or 1) of the juggernauts would frenzy and be useless for a turn. And forget about running them all in order to get there - unless you have amazing fury management, forcing more than 5 beasts to run risks frenzies, too. Let's not forget the generally higher focus values of Warmachine casters, the typically superior spell lists and feats (on average) and the fact that Warmachine factions get way, waaaaaay better troops than hordes on average. Beasts need to pay a premium for being able to force to the max for a turn. That premium should NOT be a 50%+ points increase over comparable warjacks.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Apr 23, 2017 17:49:23 GMT
First off, can the Hordes vs. Warmachine conversation be taken to its own thread and had elsewhere? General Discussion mayhaps? Please and Thank You.
Regarding the derp turtle, it's in a decent place, but it still needs improvement in my opinion. In its favor, it does all the damage you could like, is fast-ish, Cavalry, and fury independent. It's negatives however are high. Low survivability and opportunity cost. It sounds like survivability will be dealt with as even 6 more boxes will be a great boon for Derpy. Opportunity cost is harder to get around as it's not a beast and not part of the battlegroup. I'd like to see instead a star action that generates d3 angry tokens, so it's much easier to fill up early without having to devote paingivers.
In a perfect world I'd like to see it get ~40 boxes, star action, and Brutal damage tail vs huge bases to fit with "Siege" Animantarax, but I fear it's cost would rise (I might be ok with 19 in that case).
As to who it works well with, I'm surprised nobody mentioned X2. He can't manage that much fury so it takes a bunch off his sholdiers while giving him a piece that can spread out. Ignite and feat are pretty great too.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 23, 2017 23:28:39 GMT
Mordikaar guys, come on its obvious.
;P
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 24, 2017 1:45:55 GMT
um, actually it works really well with Hexeris1's feat. since you get a melee and D3 range rolls, you can charge him in to take out 1 enemy, let that chain go off, then kill another enemy with the gun... let the chain go off... then kill another... you get my point It can even fire while melee engaged allowing it to start the chain in their back rows. The issue with it is cost... not like point wise but actual purchase cost x.O; when you can buy a kitty squad for cheaper or be just 20 or so bucks away from a hydra or mammoth... right now it's just not that high on people's purchasing list.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Apr 24, 2017 4:35:58 GMT
um, actually it works really well with Hexeris1's feat. since you get a melee and D3 range rolls, you can charge him in to take out 1 enemy, let that chain go off, then kill another enemy with the gun... let the chain go off... then kill another... you get my point It can even fire while melee engaged allowing it to start the chain in their back rows. The issue with it is cost... not like point wise but actual purchase cost x.O; when you can buy a kitty squad for cheaper or be just 20 or so bucks away from a hydra or mammoth... right now it's just not that high on people's purchasing list. You mean you don't already have 2? Fiend! Betrayer! Penny Pincher!
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 24, 2017 6:30:22 GMT
you can ask my local game store of I'm a penny pincher. instead of going online, I spent over $800 at the shop in less than 5 months. I get quite a bit of leniency there for all of that. The free soda thing whenever I need to take my pills at the game store is probably my favorite ^-^ Oh and no one complaining about me running the dremmal tool when I'm putting the models together
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 27, 2017 3:38:59 GMT
The new engines are up on the CID. The turtle gets 11 boxes and goes up to 18 points. Thoughts?
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Apr 27, 2017 4:30:14 GMT
It was already a pretty solid model with the last round of upgrades. Going up to 35 boxes makes it very difficult to one-round. Since we can heal it with PGBHs, we can heal it up quickly. I see a potential problem with it out-pacing the PGBHs, but that isn't a huge issue.
I'd like to see a rule for the musician on it.
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 27, 2017 15:26:45 GMT
My main beef with the Animantarax has always been its cost; 17 + 5 for Handlers is pricey. So raising its cost for a handful of hit points doesn't seem the right direction to go in.
Of course, you could just try to get your handlers to pull double duty on the Animatarax and your beasts, but with all the terrain now it's not always easy, or even possible.
When we used to be able to charge the Ani with the Handlers at least our support could be up the board a decent amount to catch up with our beasts on later turns. Even then, clustering at one end of the board to whip just to then divert their attention to beasts elsewhere was annoying at the very least.
Even just upping our Handler unit to max for sharing their help makes the Animantarax cost 19 points currently. Seems like a lot.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Apr 27, 2017 15:32:58 GMT
I feel that the purpose of a model type like a battle engine is to take the burden of doing work against enemy heavies off of the battelgroup's shoulders a bit. Heavies require investment of resources, battle engines shouldn't. That the Siege turtle requires a dedicated unit of pbgh means that it draws from the same support pool of our heavies and as such it simply isn't going to work.
Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that huge bases still don't function in this game. Any of them. Huge bases and their interactions with game rules and table terrain obviously suffer from the games core rules being made before huge bases were conceived, and despite having several opportunities to fix this, and despite stating in the primecast many months ago while MK3 was being spoiled that they were going to fix it, they have yet to.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Apr 27, 2017 15:55:23 GMT
Well it doesn't NEED beast handlers, technically you could smack it with anything...
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Apr 27, 2017 21:09:10 GMT
I'm a tad salty it's cost went up because it's health is its boost/buy mechanic. I think any of the focus 5 casters could use him to run a flank, where he's unlikely to attract enough attention to one round him. Then ignore trying to fill him up. I'm also interested now in including him as the cornerstone of a Xerxis1 brick list.
I think I'm at least as excited about the possibilities of the Meat Thresher though. Cheap, fast, killy.
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Post by mrfantastical on Apr 28, 2017 0:58:09 GMT
Well it doesn't NEED beast handlers, technically you could smack it with anything... You NEED beast handlers because: 1) it has to be damaged in order to get rage tokens. 2) with anatomical precision you maximize your chance of getting a rage token while minimizing any additional damage potential to the Animantrax 3) they are the cheapest unit that can accomplish getting the Animantrax rage tokens 4) they can heal any damage caused
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 28, 2017 1:38:43 GMT
I'm sorry to tell you this but I've never seen a list that didn't have beasthandlers... in fact I've seen most competitive lists have more beasthandlers than beasts. Why? partially because they just do... but also because you can have 1 medicate and then have another give them their damage buff while having more left over to lower fury count. Without handlers, skorne's beasts are worth about the same as trash at a garbage dump. No matter what you are using them for, you'll always have handlers and you can never have enough of them. Why do you think they are targeted by AoEs so often? people know x.O;
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Post by CacscadianKovnik on Apr 28, 2017 4:52:35 GMT
Really, it just gives the best handlers something to do turn 1. They fill him up/heal, then he's good until he hits melee. At that point he's either one rounded or taking enough hits to be full on tokens again. T2 on your beast handlers are doing their normal thing with your Warbeasts.
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