|
Post by benjamini on Oct 15, 2018 14:30:32 GMT
So, back in MKII Butcher 2 was one of my most played casters. I used to run him in a similar list to Squee from the old Khador forums back in the day, and actually found a lot of success with that within my own meta... but then MKIII came and Butcher 2 felt like merely a shell of his former glory. Every now and again I'd think about breaking him out, but I'd always make another choice. My Devastators now felt more at home with Butcher 3, or even Kozlov. So Orsus sat in my case... until last Friday!
Inspired by some of the posting in the I5 thread, (and somewhat limited by hastily grabbing my case as I briefly stopped home after work without really looking what was in it... oops), I gave Butcher 2 a shot at a recent gaming night, and actually ended up having a lot of fun with him. I will fully admit that he is a very flawed caster. So I cobbled together a WGK list, and fought CID Zaal 2. The Immortals put up a good fight, but in the end Khador was victorious... and my interest in Butcher 2 was perhaps reignited!
I will fully admit that this list is probably not the way to run him, but I went into it thinking that I wanted to build something that didn't require much focus investment from him to succeed, and many of the things here can be self sufficient in their own way. Immortals were likely a favourable list for me, as there were a large number of potential Rage Tokens on the feat turn. Especially as my opponent used Zaals feat on the bottom of 1, so I opted to jam his immortals with kayazy, the devastator, and a few poor winter guard instead of actually trying to kill anything to deny him souls, figuring that if he did end up killing his own models to incorporeal through the LOS holes in my jamming screen/avoid the rough terrain the gun carriage made, he'd at least mess up his order of activation to do so.
I think the most unexpected thing in this game for me, is that I discovered that REALLY like having Rage Tokens on the Gun Carriage! The potential application for all those slams is GOLDEN!
I'm not sure what changes I would want to make to the list going forward, but I think I'm going to mess around with this list (or something like it) a little more in the future. What do you guys think? Have you given our most unhinged axe-wielder a shot in MKIII, how have you found him? Anything that works for you?
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand
[Butcher 2] Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Devastator [14] - Marauder [11] - Ruin [17] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Kayazy Eliminators[5] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17]
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Oct 15, 2018 16:58:45 GMT
I played him a bunch as a 'fun' drop against less experienced players.
But I got tired of the just randomly losing because I rolled a 1 for focus mechanic...
Meta matters of course. What you want to see is loads of easily killed non-tough models, preferably with melee weapons only. The game doesn't really allow that sort of list to exist any more though.
It's just not fun, even casually to play a game that's really close and then have it end because of the most stupid mechanic ever put on a caster.
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Oct 15, 2018 17:55:58 GMT
I played him a bunch as a 'fun' drop against less experienced players. But I got tired of the just randomly losing because I rolled a 1 for focus mechanic... It can definitely happen. I've been there and it sucks, I think part of it is coming up with plans that hinge around having minimal focus. I'd be more comfortable with it if he had a mechanic that helped get him out of trouble after going on a rampage... but sprint/Repo dodn't seem very Butcher-y
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 15, 2018 18:25:12 GMT
He was one of my top 3 most played casters in Mk2, easily. When I got back into Warmachine, Jaws had just been released and so (after realising Harkevich was poo) I played a fair bit of B2 in Jaws. The core of the list was: (Butcher 2) Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28][/b] [*]Juggernaut [13][*]Juggernaut [13][*]Ruin [17][*]Spriggan [17][/ul]Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)]Kayazy Eliminators [5]Kayazy Eliminators [5]Widowmaker Scouts [8]With 9 points left over. Coincidentally, the price change of the Spriggan perfectly counteracts the price change of the two Juggers, so the list still has 9 points left now. The extra 9 points I was never really happy with: If the Demolisher drops to a Devastator you can fit in a Rager (they used to cost 11) or a Marauder. I'd also gone for double min mechanics + War Dog, or switching all the Kayazy to an Assassin unit, and a couple of other things. The theory behind it is that it's all about the feat. Things in the list need to be either token generators, token users, or preferably both. Anything else needs to enable everything else to go smoothly. That list was last run over a year ago, before mercs were even allowed in themes, so I'd have changed one or two things. For example, the Marksman would become Yuri, no questions asked. And I would consider putting Sorscha0 in there instead of one of the Forge Seers, maybe. But the core would be the same. There's no massive trick to running the list; it's all about when to feat, who generates tokens, and who receives them. Butcher only needs to kill one model to give the SPD boost; go for the three only if you're certain you can survive the next turn. The Widowmakers are the only things that can't really use the tokens, and the Forge Seers and Juggernauts are the least efficient things at generating them. (But never forget that the Forge Seer has 2" reach, a magical axe, and Battle Wizard). Ruin and the Spriggan are great users of the tokens, especially into units because of reach. If you can spare enough to cast Ravager on them they become great token generators through Berzerk. The random focus can be annoying, but the feat is so damn good. Eliminators gut units, Forge Seers kill lights, Juggers kill Colossals. My general rule of thumb was that if you could generate 6 tokens without activating at least 3 of the heavy hitters, it was go time. Also, don't be afraid to take an alpha strike. If they've sent a unit to kill a jack, it's lunch for B2. If they've left any jack on 1 box, you just need to repair the main arm and it's murder o' clock. Now, the actual games will NEVER EVER be as glorious as you imagine, unless your opponent is a numpty. But I would certainly never feel at a disadvantage just because of the caster I was playing.
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Oct 15, 2018 18:51:13 GMT
hocestbellumI like this list, it's somewhat similar to what I have considered doing with this caster in Jaws! I hadn't really considered the forge seer as a good place to put focus tokens, but after reading that... oh man. That sounds interesting. I agree, once Sorscha 0 comes out, I think there will be some interesting things to do with him. Having her around will take some of the focus burden off of him by providing another source of boundless charge in the list. Giving her a jack like Devastator or a Rager (that he wants to have around anyway, but might not be your first choice for using his limited focus/can accomplish their job without conferred rage) might be a good choice. Your rule of them as to when to feat seems pretty comparable to sorts of rules I have set for myself in the past.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 15, 2018 19:41:50 GMT
With the Forge Seers, don't go whole hog on them unless you're replete with tokens. But if you give them one, they can boost the charge attack, probably kill something, Battle Wizard for Empower and generate a rage token. If you can't spare one token, it's up to you. You have a chance of them generating 2 or 0, depending on if the can hit the target.
Something that has changed significantly since I played is the Berzerker chassis, actually. Back when they were +1 points and -1 MAT, there was no way in hell I was running a Berzerker, and I would feel genuinely conflicted about the Rager. But now the Rager is solid, and B2 fixes everything about both him and the Berzerker. MAT goes to elite, P+S can go to Juggernaut levels, and the Rage tokens sidestep their downside. The Rager has three initials to generate tokens, the Berzerker has Berzerk to generate tokens. And if they do explode, well look at that! It also generates tokens.
With Fury and 3 tokens, a Berzerker has a 90% chance to rip a heavy troll in half. Not too shabby at all
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Oct 16, 2018 13:35:52 GMT
Because I had fun last time, I am planning to give him another shot next game night. I am probably going to give this a whirl to start with the list below (I also had a variant without the gun carriage with 5 Berserkers, but I think this might actually be the stronger bet). Winter Guard are mostly there for getting in the way, but if they happen to kill some stuff on the way in, great. I still maintain that the Gun Carriage is an interesting place to put Rage Tokens! and your comments about Berserkers were... eye opening to say the least . I really wish I could have Sorscha 0 to fit into a list like this, but this will have to do for now. Wish me luck, this is likely ill advised I think there's a lot to like here, though it will require an opponent who has some numbers in their list to get the best results. Butcher doesn't really provide much for the winter guard, but the winter guard here are really just around to occupy space. I don't really have any qualms with giving one of the units +7 Strength and charging them at something on the feat turn either . Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Butcher 2] Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Berserker [8] - Ruin [17] Gobber Tinker [2] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [5] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17]
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 16, 2018 19:13:59 GMT
If I'm 100% honest this looks like a B3 list more than a B2 list; you sure as hell aren't getting shot on the way in! It'll be interesting to see if the self-sufficiency of the winter guard pulls them through.
I didn't mean my comments as an indictment to take multiple Berzerkers, but absolutely let us know how it goes! If I'm feeling nitpicky, I'd have to say that it looks like everything in the list really wants Fury, but you can only really have it on one target per turn. It's why I like the Juggers so much. Even without a boost they'll put things in the dirt.
Best of luck!
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Oct 16, 2018 20:04:03 GMT
If I'm 100% honest this looks like a B3 list more than a B2 list; you sure as hell aren't getting shot on the way in! It'll be interesting to see if the self-sufficiency of the winter guard pulls them through. I didn't mean my comments as an indictment to take multiple Berzerkers, but absolutely let us know how it goes! If I'm feeling nitpicky, I'd have to say that it looks like everything in the list really wants Fury, but you can only really have it on one target per turn. It's why I like the Juggers so much. Even without a boost they'll put things in the dirt. Best of luck! You're right! It is actually quite similar to a Butcher 3 list I often run (though I prefer to run him with 3 jacks, two gun carriages and fewer infantry squads/rockets, because he does even less for them than 2 does). Part of my exploration of Butcher 2 these days stems from me playing Butcher 3 pretty extensively in both WGK and Jaws and wanting to try something a little different, so similar lists will probably be a starting point in this particular exploration. But that's okay, I actually think a lot of the principle is the same between the two casters. Obviously there are some differences (consistent focus vs random focus, the dogs for blocking vs no dogs) but they have different takes on some of the same aspects - Usually with Butcher 2 having the more powerful ability in theory, but complicated by needing certain conditions and with an added risk factor. That said, In my mind (and most sane eyes) Butcher 3 is clearly the better overall caster, but for this experiment, maybe sanity isn't what we need. I think WGK is a good place to start, despite not being "traditional" for Butcher 2. This is because despite his strength and armor, I feel his abilities, and general penchant for getting stuck in himself, leave him very "fragile" in comparison to other casters. WGK has access to large numbers of the cheapest infantry in Khador, and sacrificial pawn can easily keep our Axe-Wielder safe. Back in MKII, my main reason for fielding him was jack support. He offered a lot to a faction that often had trouble fueling more than a jack or two. I'm not convinced yet that in a world of power-up, his abilities still offer as significant of an advantage as they once did. So for the time being, the super jack heavy lists will stay at home. For the time being, I'm not aiming for any list I try with him to be my most competitive to date. But I do think there's more to him than "That caster who rolls a 1 for focus and loses you the game". Anyway, here is my little compare and contrast between the abilities of the two. Using this list properly is likely going to hinge on how well these factors can be swung in my favour. Aspect: Jack Mobility Buff -Butcher 2: Conferred Rage (+2 SPD, Mat if he kills something), Boundless charge on his spell list -Butcher 3: Energizer Obviously these two things are not the same, energizer lets you set up some cool out of activation/nonlinear plays, but provided you can keep paths relatively clear, access to pathfinder in a pinch is handy. Aspect: Damage Buff -Butcher 2: Fury, Feat (+3 Damage, potential for more attacks/boosts) -Butcher 3: Silence of Death (+2 STR, No Tough) Once again, Butcher 2's abilities are conditional, you have to have relatively easily killed targets to allow for the additional attacks/boosts, but there is potential! Aspect: Personal Mobility -Butcher 2: Homicidal Maniac, Eliminator -Butcher 3: Energizer, Vengeance, Impending Doom I really wish that Homicidal Maniac wasn't so watered down from what it used to be. I understand why it changed from the early days of MK III, but surely there was a cleaner way to do this. Nevertheless, against some lists you can actually string out quite a large amount of movement from this, especially if you are careful with how he is positioned while he moves. I've never really cast eliminator in most circumstances. I like it more on Makeda 3, but she has blood boon... *sigh* As for Butcher 3, Vengeance is conditional, but it really allows for the dogs to be used to disincentivize aggression against him. Aspect: Personal Violence Multiplier -Butcher 2: Berserker, Feat -Butcher 3: Flashing Blade, Feat Flashing blade is a very powerful spell, especially on such a dangerous model as Butcher 3. Berserker pales in comparison, especially with the specter of random focus over his head (assuming he hasn't "fed" on three enemy models). That being said, Butcher 2's feat allows for more flexibility than the focus from Butcher 3's does. You're able to destroy targets in a single location more reliably, but I am still drawn to the army support features of Butcher 2's feat, even if Butcher 3 is more dangerous in principle. Worth noting that the Dogs are a very significant factor in keeping Butcher 3 alive (until they die of course), as well as the "no charge" clause on his feat. Butcher 2 has NONE of this, so we will need to compensate. Enter Winter Guard... I hope.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 16, 2018 20:20:03 GMT
Yeah, I get where you're coming from. My idea of protecting him has always been to plonk a clamjack in the way!
With regards to the Jack support thing; he would absolutely do well again if they simply reinstated the part of Conferred Rage that said 'your warjacks can charge or make power attacks without spending focus'. That was absolute gold.
If they ever do CID him, I suspect they'll just streamline him a bit by giving him Overtake, and that will be it.
|
|
Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
|
Post by Zaku on Oct 19, 2018 16:36:14 GMT
hocestbellum,
I was doing some thinking on that Jaws Butcher2 list you posted, and how does this look?
Khador Army - 70 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
[Butcher 2] Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Berserker [8] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Ruin [17] - Spriggan [17] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Berserker [8] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
The last 5 points is where I am a bit stumped. Ogrun Bokur, max Mechaniks, War Dog + Gobber Tinker?
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 19, 2018 16:43:55 GMT
Looks solid! I'd consider upgrading Sorscha's Berzerker to a Rager; it's good for generating tokens, good at using tokens, but mostly it's just about the toughest Shield Guard going. That lets you protect B2 a little better. Then the three could be min Mechanics or the War Dog; I'd lean towards the former.
Mechanics Tinker would be good; a flag camper like the Tinker really comes in handy.
The Widowmaker Marksman isn't a bad shout.
Or straight up Kell Bailoch or Orin Midwinter. Kell in particular would enjoy the Fog of War and is a decent token generator.
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Nov 5, 2018 17:16:59 GMT
I ended up playing my Butcher list a couple times, unfortunately I didn't really gather a whole lot of data because I played it into two fairly low model count lists, so I never really got much out of the feat turn. Played against Makeda 3 in a CID prep game, and Ragnor in a low-model count SoTN. Probably not worth writing up a full battle report, but I will post a couple observations -I will say that getting a chance to feat a bit on the gun carriage was a lot of fun when it put more slams on the table. -As they often do, winter guard are generally self sufficient enough to get by without too much in the way of buffs. Against a less unfavourable matchup, they likely would have served pretty well at token generation. -Because I kept rolling low for focus, and wasn't able to generate too many rage tokens, Butcher 2 himself was pretty ineffectual. Not the best test case unfortunately
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2018 17:24:19 GMT
-Because I kept rolling low for focus, and wasn't able to generate too many rage tokens, Butcher 2 himself was pretty ineffectual. Not the best test case unfortunately That’s your test case and critical takeaway right there. : p “Because of a random die roll completely out of my control, my warcaster failed to function on the most basic level of being a warcaster.”
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Nov 5, 2018 17:39:25 GMT
-Because I kept rolling low for focus, and wasn't able to generate too many rage tokens, Butcher 2 himself was pretty ineffectual. Not the best test case unfortunately That’s your test case and critical takeaway right there. : p “Because of a random die roll completely out of my control, my warcaster failed to function on the most basic level of being a warcaster.” I mean I actually managed to pull out the win, but that was mostly due to the gun carriage being awesome with the couple of rage tokens I WAS able to generate. But yes. I dunno what it is... but my roll pattern for Butcher 3 seems to always be: Turn 1: roll 3-5 Turn 2: roll 3-4 Turn 3: roll 1 Turn 4: roll 1 PP seems to have indicated that the random focus isn't going anywhere, but sometimes I wonder what would happen if they gave him the ability to re-roll his focus roll somehow.
|
|