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Post by michael on Nov 5, 2018 17:58:50 GMT
Oh, I came up with a really swell solution for Butcher2, and I didn’t even touch Arcane Dementia at all!  But, yeah: the Gun Carriage isn’t half bad.  I suggest that something needs improvement when players say “I still managed to win the game despite the fact that my warcaster was a handicap I had to overcome”, you know?  |
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 5, 2018 18:09:54 GMT
I suggest that something needs improvement when players say “I still managed to win the game despite the fact that my warcaster was a handicap I had to overcome”, you know? I feel like that when I win with Harkevich, not B2! |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 5, 2018 18:46:04 GMT
sometimes I wonder what would happen if they gave him the ability to re-roll his focus roll somehow. PP should give him a rule where he has random focus, but you can reroll if you rolled less than a six. No limit on the number of rerolls. |
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Post by benjamini on Nov 5, 2018 19:09:11 GMT
sometimes I wonder what would happen if they gave him the ability to re-roll his focus roll somehow. PP should give him a rule where he has random focus, but you can reroll if you rolled less than a six. No limit on the number of rerolls. You joke, but allowing a single re-roll might be a way to keep some of the randomness... with reducing the likelihood of getting shafted with a 1. Mind you, if it's anything like what happens in some other games I play, where single die re-rolls are commonplace... rerolling a 1 into a 1 seems to happen 90% of the time . |
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Post by benjamini on Nov 5, 2018 19:11:32 GMT
Oh, I came up with a really swell solution for Butcher2, and I didn’t even touch Arcane Dementia at all! But, yeah: the Gun Carriage isn’t half bad. I suggest that something needs improvement when players say “I still managed to win the game despite the fact that my warcaster was a handicap I had to overcome”, you know? I've read that thread, and didn't really have much to contribute beyond "Impervious Flesh sounds gross on him", which admittedly isn't the most helpful. So I've watching it to see how it shakes down. I might try to get a test if I find a willing opponent, but I'm mostly focusing my attention on trying to find a working Jaws list for a local Champions event... which... is proving challenging. |
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Post by michael on Nov 5, 2018 22:23:58 GMT
Oh, I came up with a really swell solution for Butcher2, and I didn’t even touch Arcane Dementia at all! But, yeah: the Gun Carriage isn’t half bad. I suggest that something needs improvement when players say “I still managed to win the game despite the fact that my warcaster was a handicap I had to overcome”, you know? I've read that thread, and didn't really have much to contribute beyond "Impervious Flesh sounds gross on him", which admittedly isn't the most helpful. So I've watching it to see how it shakes down. I might try to get a test if I find a willing opponent, but I'm mostly focusing my attention on trying to find a working Jaws list for a local Champions event... which... is proving challenging. Not that I have found it too good, yet, but it would be quite easy to add a “This model gains Impervious Flesh while it has at least 1 focus point”. That would give an interesting decision point when trying to decide whether or not to use his last focus to soak 5 damage. But, yeah, give him a spin. Ask questions if you are unsure about how something works. Good rules knowledge is essential when trying to use him. |
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Post by MrHaystacks on Nov 6, 2018 11:18:37 GMT
What about if he rolls a 1-2/3-4/5-6 for Arcane Dementia he gains a situational effect to show how much control he has.
thinking is when he has rolled low, hes gone of the deep-end and and his magic power is spilling out uncontrolled, when he has rolled high he has a moment of clarity in the storm and may not need a benefit. I'd suggest 1-2: JHacks gain aggressive, 3-4, free cast boundless charge on self, 5-6 nothing.
Only a quick thought and needs balancing but could be used to allow strong abilities to only work when they wont be too broken.
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Post by michael on Nov 6, 2018 12:41:11 GMT
What about if he rolls a 1-2/3-4/5-6 for Arcane Dementia he gains a situational effect to show how much control he has. thinking is when he has rolled low, hes gone of the deep-end and and his magic power is spilling out uncontrolled, when he has rolled high he has a moment of clarity in the storm and may not need a benefit. I'd suggest 1-2: JHacks gain aggressive, 3-4, free cast boundless charge on self, 5-6 nothing. Only a quick thought and needs balancing but could be used to allow strong abilities to only work when they wont be too broken. I could easily imagine that is even more frustrating than current. “I really need to roll a 1 or 2 this turn in order to win....Crap, got a 3.” And that still doesn’t address his survivability issues, or frequent reluctance / inability to cast spells, mechanical annoyances of the in-print Homicidal Maniac, and so forth... |
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Post by benjamini on Nov 6, 2018 13:28:19 GMT
michaelAye, he's got some issues. You have some interesting proposals for fixing those, but I'm sure there are other ways forward as well. For instance if they took MKII Butcher 2 and transplanted him into MKIII with little to no change... I'd be all over that, even though he still has survivability issues! Remember that NQ article a while back that was written in MKIII but seemed to refer to his MKII feat? Good times
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Post by michael on Nov 6, 2018 15:11:37 GMT
michaelAye, he's got some issues. You have some interesting proposals for fixing those, but I'm sure there are other ways forward as well. For instance if they took MKII Butcher 2 and transplanted him into MKIII with little to no change... I'd be all over that, even though he still has survivability issues! Remember that NQ article a while back that was written in MKIII but seemed to refer to his MKII feat? Good times MK II Butcher2 in this edition would be far too good. But, you’ll notice that my version of B2 hews close to previous editions, when it’s all said and done. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 10, 2018 0:36:20 GMT
OK, I know this is last minute.
I’m not ashamed to say that I haven’t played Butcher 2 since MK2. I used to play him a fair amount. All this talk about B2 has colored me nostalgic, and I figure I should get in at least one game with him before he shows up in CID. Also, to be fair, I should probably at least have some real world experience with him before gabbering off at her mouth here on our forum. But I digress...
I’m playing a friendly game tomorrow with a friend who promised to not bring a hard core gunline. It’ll be Skorne or Minions. I’m leaning towards:
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf
3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Orsus Zoktavir - WJ: +28
- Ruin - PC: 17
- Grolar - PC: 18
- Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
Yuri the Axe - PC: 0
Ragman - PC: 4
Kovnik Sorscha Katrikoff - PC: 0 (CID Edition)
- Marauder - PC: 11
Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
It’s a friendly game, so I’m not overly worried about it being Uber competitive. The basic idea of the list is that the Assassins run forward to screen Butcher and his Battlegroup, who benefit from Fog of War. I’m looking for the opportunity to Live The Dream with either Victor (plus Conferred RAge plus Ragman plus Fury) or the Grolar (plus Fury, plus pac manning through at least 3 models). I feel like everything has a role...
Victor to layer on a ranged threat while presenting a 13” Threat of Doom.
Ruin because, well, Ruin.
Grolar for POW 21 PacMan threat.
Double Eliminators to generate and use tokens. Ditto Yuri.
Assassins as a screening unit which can dish output if my opponent is sloppy.
Ragman, because, well, Victor.
Sorscha for Boundless Charge (because Butcher wants his focus).
The Marauder because that’s how many points I had left over for Sorscha.
I dismissed WGK since we agreed nobody would bring a hard core gunline, and I want Ragman to live the fantasy. He’s like my lotto ticket.
I thought about Armored Korp with Demos and Shocks plus Victor and Ruin...but then I coulnd’t fit in the Grolar.
Thoughts?
I’ll let everyone know how the game goes.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 10, 2018 21:21:30 GMT
UPDATE:
I played the above list against Malok running a wrastler/swamp horror/bone shrine, triple Valkyries, the new minions junior marshaling a wrastler, Brun & Lug, a totem hunter, the soul pot, and some additional support.
The game was a delightful grind. I won the game on Round 5 after a failed assassination attempt by Malok, which would have worked if I had had even one less focus on Butcher in the final moment.
Some thoughts:
My success felt too dependent on random focus rolls. I had a big feat turn, which I was able to pull off comfortably while still sitting on a camp because I rolled 5 on the focus die. It seems on the turns I needed focus, I reliably rolled a 3-5, so I didn't feel overly disadvantaged.
It's really easy for a savvy opponent to keep you from being able to clear out 3 models until late game. It would be nice if the focus mechanic could be managed a bit easier.
Conferred rage is still good. It would be better with free charges.
Butcher just feels really vulnerable with his tail flapping the wind. I could play around it this game, but that meant I was playing Butcher pretty conservatively most of the game which is not how I wanted to be playing him. Unyielding would have felt good on him.
Tough models make pac manning a pain. I would love to see a new spell on Butcher's card that offers models in his command range Take Down (ideally, +2 Str and Take Down...similar to Silence of Death).
I miss playing Butcher 2. I hope they fix him!
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785 
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Post by wendan on Dec 24, 2018 2:50:05 GMT
All this Butcher 2 talk makes me happy. I've been running him in mad dogs with 5 units of doomies, and I am finding that he is a lot more fun now that everybody seems to be running infantry all the time. For now, I've made the switch to old witch for my infantry clearing needs, but I do think B2 has got some great game! I don't even mind the random focus aspect. I find it encourages me to play risky and go for those minimum three kills to hit 7 next turn.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Dec 24, 2018 3:44:54 GMT
Honestly, if Butcher2 just had 2d3 for his random Focus... I would be so much happier with him. I still enjoy him, but that is really all I would need or want.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Dec 24, 2018 4:17:51 GMT
I think my math might be off, but isn't 2d3 not as good as 1d6+1?
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