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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Nov 6, 2018 22:10:09 GMT
Zeykk Cygnar does not have an answer to Ossrum double Siege Crawler, so much so I bought a pair of them myself, if you can't beat em, join em!
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 7, 2018 14:57:29 GMT
I get that it would be a more balanced profile than before, but it doesn't really seem like it makes sense with their fluff. They are the high SHIELDS after all. Then just have them throw their shields very high as a ranged attack. Who needs carbines anyway? Captain Rhulerica High Shield CA
Cost 7 Cannot be taken for free in any list
10 boxes Shield - 0.5" reach, P+S 10 melee weapon. This weapon is a shield that gives the model a cumulative +2 ARM bonus.
Grants carapace to High Shields within CMD Cling 'em or Fling 'em (Order) - High Shields receiving this order lose carapace for the remainder of the turn, but gain a Range 10 Pow 10 attack that leaps to the d3 nearest targets.
Zeykk Cygnar does not have an answer to Ossrum double Siege Crawler, so much so I bought a pair of them myself, if you can't beat em, join em! Except Haley3, if recent tournament results are anything to consider.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Nov 7, 2018 17:12:22 GMT
Xintas I mean at this point Haley3 Gravediggers might as well be it's own faction
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 7, 2018 18:08:23 GMT
Then just have them throw their shields very high as a ranged attack. Who needs carbines anyway? Captain Rhulerica High Shield CA
Cost 7 Cannot be taken for free in any list
10 boxes Shield - 0.5" reach, P+S 10 melee weapon. This weapon is a shield that gives the model a cumulative +2 ARM bonus.
Grants carapace to High Shields within CMD Cling 'em or Fling 'em (Order) - High Shields receiving this order lose carapace for the remainder of the turn, but gain a Range 10 Pow 10 attack that leaps to the d3 nearest targets. I'ts not my inention to quote this, no offence, how the fuq can I delete dis? Give her Tactics: Arcing Fire to illustrate how HIGH the HIGH shield throw their shields. Also make it so that you have to physically take off the SHIELDS of your high SHIELDS and throw them at your opponent, and if the high SHIELDS get b2b with their lost SHIELDS they can pick them up and regain carapace.
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Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Nov 7, 2018 18:17:42 GMT
As stated above, Haley3 is a solid answer. Ignoring here because she builds differently than other Cygnar casters is laughable. You claimed there is no answer in Cygnar; the fact is: there is. Just because you don't want to buy, play, or can't play her doesn't mean you don't have an answer in faction.
"Might as well be it's own faction"? I mean I guess the same could be said for most, if not all, Merc themes. You'll elicit no empathy from the Merc forums on that front.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 7, 2018 19:09:14 GMT
i am here to provide empathy, and also sometimes questionable advice, and to give fellows a hard time when they are silly. three things. this time it is empathy
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 7, 2018 19:31:52 GMT
As stated above, Haley3 is a solid answer. Ignoring here because she builds differently than other Cygnar casters is laughable. You claimed there is no answer in Cygnar; the fact is: there is. Just because you don't want to buy, play, or can't play her doesn't mean you don't have an answer in faction. "Might as well be it's own faction"? I mean I guess the same could be said for most, if not all, Merc themes. You'll elicit no empathy from the Merc forums on that front. I am pretty sure it was meant as a joke, but I'm the new guy, so what do I know? Also anybody can have my empathy for the right prize.
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Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Nov 7, 2018 20:13:53 GMT
Unfortunately I meant sympathy. However the typo has already been caught. Oh well.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Nov 7, 2018 22:38:16 GMT
As stated above, Haley3 is a solid answer. Ignoring here because she builds differently than other Cygnar casters is laughable. You claimed there is no answer in Cygnar; the fact is: there is. Just because you don't want to buy, play, or can't play her doesn't mean you don't have an answer in faction. "Might as well be it's own faction"? I mean I guess the same could be said for most, if not all, Merc themes. You'll elicit no empathy from the Merc forums on that front. Whoosh!
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 8, 2018 9:54:44 GMT
"Ossrum is no worse than Skarre 1" is not exactly ironclad evidence that he's not broken. Yes, other S-Tier casters can and do beat him. As do A-Tier casters when they have good answers. That doesn't prove much. Still, what Cryx gets away with isn't the point here. They shouldn't either, and even though you will never have as much presence in the S-Tier, two wrongs don't make a right.
The problem with Ossrum is not just that he polishes turds too well. He does, and that actually is something that gets out of hand for other casters too sometimes. But it's more than that. This is not just one of those cases like Kolgrima or Skarre 3 who don't do any one thing that breaks the game but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and their tuning and synergies are just too good in general. Yes, casters will always vary in relative power level (and that can shift over time) but there is such a thing as being too far above or below the curve, even without the kind of specific problems that Ossrum has.
And he does have them. Ossrum is both over-tuned in general and broken in specific at the same time. He does things that no caster should be able to do. Spammable Bulldoze should not happen. (Maybe as half of a feat for a different caster, like Madrak 2 does with Overtake + Berserk, which the Devs are otherwise careful to never allow.) Especially not on 6-point warjacks and combined with Energizer, Tactician and Ossrum's feat, which is already too good just on its own... This adds up to something so clearly not okay that I honestly can't understand how you can defend it. Yes, there are degrees of counterplay available- IF you happen to have teched for them, and it's not as simple as playing more infantry.
Back to his feat, granting +3 SPD and ARM on a pulse is highly problematic, as noted above. Feats tend to work in certain ways for a reason. Imagine if Grim 1's feat were a pulse and Impalers always had Smite instead of only on crits, and they were 7 points each. Obviously pretty stupid, right? Well so is the ability to put +3 SPD and ARM on your whole army then run models that were already pretty tanky past the 30" inch line top of 2 and they keep the +3 ARM.
It's too easy for Ossrum to build lists that are too hard to answer and make for lopsided games and list chicken scenarios. The facts that a) he can do this in two different themes with two very different lists and b) that the other Rhulic casters never see tournament play at all only add to the realization that the problem is not the cheap jacks, it's the overpowered caster.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 8, 2018 14:24:11 GMT
I'm just going to stick to a couple of your complaints for now.
Bulldoze shouldn't be spammable:
Axis has the same spell and also has a feat that reads:
"Feat : Circumpotence For one round, enemy models currently in Axis' CTRL range suffer a -2 STR and SPD debuff and can't charge, slam or trample. Friendly Faction models gain a +2 STR and SPD buff. "
Siege's feat reads:
"Feat : Perfect Position
Small- and medium-based friendly Faction warrior models currently in his CTRL range immediately advance up to 3" and then gain Dig In. (Dig In (★ Action) - This model gains cover, it does not suffer blast damage, and does not block LOS. The model remains dug in until it moves, is placed, or is engaged. It can begin the game dug in.) Warjacks in his battlegroup currently in his CTRL area gain Bulldoze for one turn."
He also has razor wall, so he can put down a wall and then bulldoze people into it.
Ossrum is hardly alone in some of the games he can play. Again, I think if there is any problem with his lists, it is 6 point jacks, but I've been saying the cost of solos vs jacks has been off since the beginning of mk3 (and PP seems to agree, as cheap jacks keep getting "balanced" to cost more).
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Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Nov 8, 2018 16:55:07 GMT
"Ossrum is no worse than Skarre 1" is not exactly ironclad evidence that he's not broken. Yes, other S-Tier casters can and do beat him. As do A-Tier casters when they have good answers. That doesn't prove much. Still, what Cryx gets away with isn't the point here. They shouldn't either, and even though you will never have as much presence in the S-Tier, two wrongs don't make a right. The problem with Ossrum is not just that he polishes turds too well. He does, and that actually is something that gets out of hand for other casters too sometimes. But it's more than that. This is not just one of those cases like Kolgrima or Skarre 3 who don't do any one thing that breaks the game but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and their tuning and synergies are just too good in general. Yes, casters will always vary in relative power level (and that can shift over time) but there is such a thing as being too far above or below the curve, even without the kind of specific problems that Ossrum has. And he does have them. Ossrum is both over-tuned in general and broken in specific at the same time. He does things that no caster should be able to do. Spammable Bulldoze should not happen. (Maybe as half of a feat for a different caster, like Madrak 2 does with Overtake + Berserk, which the Devs are otherwise careful to never allow.) Especially not on 6-point warjacks and combined with Energizer, Tactician and Ossrum's feat, which is already too good just on its own... This adds up to something so clearly not okay that I honestly can't understand how you can defend it. Yes, there are degrees of counterplay available- IF you happen to have teched for them, and it's not as simple as playing more infantry. Back to his feat, granting +3 SPD and ARM on a pulse is highly problematic, as noted above. Feats tend to work in certain ways for a reason. Imagine if Grim 1's feat were a pulse and Impalers always had Smite instead of only on crits, and they were 7 points each. Obviously pretty stupid, right? Well so is the ability to put +3 SPD and ARM on your whole army then run models that were already pretty tanky past the 30" inch line top of 2 and they keep the +3 ARM. It's too easy for Ossrum to build lists that are too hard to answer and make for lopsided games and list chicken scenarios. The facts that a) he can do this in two different themes with two very different lists and b) that the other Rhulic casters never see tournament play at all only add to the realization that the problem is not the cheap jacks, it's the overpowered caster. Spammable bulldoze? On cheap lights or multiple models? No other caster can do that? Axis and Siege would like a word with you (as mentioned by Xintas). +SPD feat on a pulse broke? I'm pretty sure that's in line with other feats that provide +SPD (Axis and Kozlov for example). Does it need to be an aura; no. Does it provide too much? Maybe, it could possibly be dropped back to +2;+2. Also, comparing ossrum's defensive feat to an offensive feat is like comparing apples to oranges. Hey they're both feats! Good job, "pretty stupid, right?" A more meaningful comparison would be between two defensive feats or even two similar feats. There are hybrid feats, and most of these tend to be inconsistent in aura vs pulse across the board (Axis vs Damiano for example). And yes I compared Axis and Ossrum's feat earlier which is an inconsistency in my claim above but shows that for the +SPD component, it's in line with other casters and makes sense (good luck handling +SPD on an aura). 6 point lights the problem? They have proportionally (about) less boxes than other lights have in the game; and similar armor. So what's the problem here? Buffing armor with a feat then jamming a problem because it's a pulse? Isn't that a pretty standard play with armor feats? His army without his feat is no more tanky than other ARM-focused lists. As far as other Rhulic casters: the other two "never" see tournament play? I'm pretty sure that's factually false. Gorten has seen success recently and has always been viable. Don't other factions have casters that don't regularly see play or no play at all as well? How do you objectively measure how hard or easy it is to build a list for a caster? How do you objectively measure if a caster is too good or does something "too well" vs good/well enough or just the right amount of "too"? Maybe the other casters don't do their job well enough and should rise to the challenge? Or maybe they are designed to do other, different things and can't do certain things as well as him? So Ossrum is above this hypothetical curve of power? I haven't seen such a curve and again, he's in line with other casters of other factions, so what's the problem? So I should suggest that other casters that see normal/regular or "too" regular tournament play are also overpowered because they can run the same stuff the other warcasters available can run? There are plenty of solutions and counters to what he can do or what he brings to the table. Don't want to tech against something your army is weak against? I guess that defeats the whole purpose of a 2 list system.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 8, 2018 19:04:30 GMT
I can't love the above enough times.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 8, 2018 19:14:03 GMT
cory doyl made finals at wmhw wid gorten and assrum
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 8, 2018 22:02:48 GMT
Xintas Zeykk I didn't say that no one else could spam Bulldoze, I said that no one should. Axis is problematic too. I said that I could maybe see it as part of a feat, as it is with Siege, who is very strong overall. Again, just because other casters are just as bad or have similar problems does not absolve Ossrum of anything. (And FYI, Grim's feat is both offensive and defensive, like Ossrums, FWIW) No, we don't have any definitive answer from the Devs as to exactly where they intend the power curve to be. We can see bits of that here and there, like the example I mentioned with severe limits on certain things, but honestly, we don't know because I'm pretty sure they don't know. But the munchkins know where they want the power curve to be and the answer is always "higher." They just don't seem to understand or care about the damage that power creep can do to a game or how vulnerable this game really is. And really, half of your Wall of Text is arguing against things I didn't even say and in some cases even expressly tried to explain I was not saying. I chose my sig for good reason, after all, but it's never more difficult to get someone to understand something when they want so badly not to.
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