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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 4, 2018 11:35:34 GMT
Is it me (I know little about skorne) or does the CID look really... Sparse? 3 new Solo's (1 a character) + Battle Engine. Changes to Makeda 3, a small (but interesting) boost to ardus, a couple 1 pt changes and extra boxes to titans, improvements to the hydras spray and cost, shooting gallery to the mammoth (but walls still make it sad) and that's it. It doesn't sound like much due to the huge restrictions within the theme (1 unit, 6 solos and BE) available. The list feels built before you start. Like I said it maybe just me not knowing what the faction needs and I am ignorant to the impact (and if so please say so), or they are taking a "softly softly" approach and will drop bigger changes next week. I guess they didn't really have any good ideas for units? Like you said the theme itself is not very broad to begin with, so if they can't add a new units, solos is all they have. That does raise the question of why they feel like this theme needs a release though. The SG will definitely shake up how the theme plays, but the solos seem minor. There aren't that many legacy changes, because Skorne "should" mostly be on an acceptable powerlevel already, since they were the faction that got a complete overhaul before the CID started. In theory, minor tweaks, like we see now, are all that are needed. Some units could definitely use some help, but they are part of other themes, so are omitted by default.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 4, 2018 11:39:15 GMT
Radheim would not qualify. He is only allowed in one Theme and that one does not provide for any free solos, just for free Command Attachments and a certain 2-man unit. His points do go for it, but he doesn't qualify otherwise. Does any cavalry/Dragoon solo qualify to be free? The only other one I have familiarity with is Mercs, and Large Base solos do not qualify for being free there. Stannis Brocker in Kingmaker. But then again, it's Stannis Brocker. Although this and Skeryth are true, do they get taken at all if they are not free? I play purely Steelhead mercs and Ret as some of my factions and I never even look at either if I'm paying for them. That being said, they are free in the themes that want them, so by and large they are always in those lists. You really need to look more at the power cavalry solos that aren't taken, Alexia2, Destor Thane, etc. These are powerful utility models that because of how themes are constructed basically never see the table. You can't get free points from them, and they eat up places that WILL get you free models, so they hit your benefits on both side. Alexia2 is seven points herself and eats up 7 of your 30 towards freebs, so she's not a 14 point investment, obviously, but she's kind of 10-ish, in a list building view. I would personally like to see more Cav solos/dragoons be free options. I think Skeryth works because he's a combat solo with one attack, where something like Horthol doesn't because he brings a bucket of utility to LongRiders AND is a combat solo, and it's those balances that need to be weighed rather than OMG LARGE BASE FOR FREEEEEE! I like CID, by and large. I certainly don't agree that everything but AC has been a failure. And I slowly got on board for themes. But, the CID process definitely still needs some ironing, and a lot of it does have to do with establishing an honest expectation of what needs to be done, and what is desired to be accomplished. And I'm sorry, but not much should one round a Juggernaut in a straight up fight (since that's the example we're using). A heavy on heavy fight, barring buff stacking, SHOULD be a bit of back and forth over a round or two, trying to land those critical damage spikes and weapon special effects.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Oct 4, 2018 12:50:08 GMT
Is it me (I know little about skorne) or does the CID look really... Sparse? 3 new Solo's (1 a character) + Battle Engine. Changes to Makeda 3, a small (but interesting) boost to ardus, a couple 1 pt changes and extra boxes to titans, improvements to the hydras spray and cost, shooting gallery to the mammoth (but walls still make it sad) and that's it. It doesn't sound like much due to the huge restrictions within the theme (1 unit, 6 solos and BE) available. The list feels built before you start. Like I said it maybe just me not knowing what the faction needs and I am ignorant to the impact (and if so please say so), or they are taking a "softly softly" approach and will drop bigger changes next week. I guess they didn't really have any good ideas for units? Like you said the theme itself is not very broad to begin with, so if they can't add a new units, solos is all they have. That does raise the question of why they feel like this theme needs a release though. The SG will definitely shake up how the theme plays, but the solos seem minor. There aren't that many legacy changes, because Skorne "should" mostly be on an acceptable powerlevel already, since they were the faction that got a complete overhaul before the CID started. In theory, minor tweaks, like we see now, are all that are needed. Some units could definitely use some help, but they are part of other themes, so are omitted by default. They said at LnL it was going to be a very small release because it wasn’t planned to be exalted, it was supposed to be cataphracts but there were too many delays.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 4, 2018 14:05:03 GMT
I guess they didn't really have any good ideas for units? Like you said the theme itself is not very broad to begin with, so if they can't add a new units, solos is all they have. That does raise the question of why they feel like this theme needs a release though. The SG will definitely shake up how the theme plays, but the solos seem minor. There aren't that many legacy changes, because Skorne "should" mostly be on an acceptable powerlevel already, since they were the faction that got a complete overhaul before the CID started. In theory, minor tweaks, like we see now, are all that are needed. Some units could definitely use some help, but they are part of other themes, so are omitted by default. They said at LnL it was going to be a very small release because it wasn’t planned to be exalted, it was supposed to be cataphracts but there were too many delays. Huh, I hadn't heard that before. Good to know. I had figured it was something like there was more planned but they moved the cycle forward to try and match the Supreme Guardian and because the Skorne playerbase was getting a little mutinous pre L&L because the info that had been released at that point implied it would be the middle of next year when we got a CiD, after getting lapped a few times by the more popular factions...
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 4, 2018 14:45:18 GMT
I guess they didn't really have any good ideas for units? Like you said the theme itself is not very broad to begin with, so if they can't add a new units, solos is all they have. That does raise the question of why they feel like this theme needs a release though. The SG will definitely shake up how the theme plays, but the solos seem minor. There aren't that many legacy changes, because Skorne "should" mostly be on an acceptable powerlevel already, since they were the faction that got a complete overhaul before the CID started. In theory, minor tweaks, like we see now, are all that are needed. Some units could definitely use some help, but they are part of other themes, so are omitted by default. They said at LnL it was going to be a very small release because it wasn’t planned to be exalted, it was supposed to be cataphracts but there were too many delays. I've also heard, recently, that there are more units waiting in the wings for Exalted, and that they want to run these changes through initial testing before trying out other changes like Ancestral Guardians being taken in other Themes with Zaal1 and Void Spirits with Mordikaar (there was even a Facebook response pictured on this last one).
But you know how rumors are, they are probably not true, so you should tell everyone you know.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Oct 4, 2018 16:42:53 GMT
Speaking in points means only MAT/POW/#Attacks matter which is a huge problem. I agree with you, I was just trying to illustrate an example. There is more that goes into a models point cost than straight damage output, which a lot of players seem to miss and which PP doesn't make explicit enough.
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Post by Wispur on Oct 4, 2018 23:59:26 GMT
It would literally be easier to list what CG models are not under-costed, overpowered, stupid-broken, or all of the above. Which would be... the Mechaniks maybe? I'm legitimately curious what CG figures you think are overpowered? Maybe stuff that hasn't been officially released yet? Because I've played 5 games so far against the current CG stuff and curb-stomped it every time with the Power of Dhunia theme. I just Face-Tank what they throw at me with Ragnor or Doomy3's Feats, then proceed to kill, well, pretty much everything. >.> Of course the Colossal and Tanks may change that... but their current stuff just hasn't been a thing. Unless Doomy3 and Ragnor just happen to be perfect counters? I dunno.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Oct 5, 2018 1:10:29 GMT
It would literally be easier to list what CG models are not under-costed, overpowered, stupid-broken, or all of the above. Which would be... the Mechaniks maybe? I'm legitimately curious what CG figures you think are overpowered? Maybe stuff that hasn't been officially released yet? Because I've played 5 games so far against the current CG stuff and curb-stomped it every time with the Power of Dhunia theme. I just Face-Tank what they throw at me with Ragnor or Doomy3's Feats, then proceed to kill, well, pretty much everything. >.> Of course the Colossal and Tanks may change that... but their current stuff just hasn't been a thing. Unless Doomy3 and Ragnor just happen to be perfect counters? I dunno. Yeah I’m like 4-1 against CG, and I usually am slightly worse than 50-50 against those same players. I’m not sure I understand the complaints.
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Post by onijet01 on Oct 5, 2018 1:43:01 GMT
I'm legitimately curious what CG figures you think are overpowered? Maybe stuff that hasn't been officially released yet? Because I've played 5 games so far against the current CG stuff and curb-stomped it every time with the Power of Dhunia theme. I just Face-Tank what they throw at me with Ragnor or Doomy3's Feats, then proceed to kill, well, pretty much everything. >.> Of course the Colossal and Tanks may change that... but their current stuff just hasn't been a thing. Unless Doomy3 and Ragnor just happen to be perfect counters? I dunno. Yeah I’m like 4-1 against CG, and I usually am slightly worse than 50-50 against those same players. I’m not sure I understand the complaints. Theory craft. Dispite the CG look on paper even if they have all their models. CG has a glaring flaw that really any player can play to. CG is best vs low def high arm and hit box armies, with at best mat 6-7 potential. These armies generslly are just slow or are bricked up enough to allow CG to shine. As a result many forces have an advantage in accuracy and numbers over CG. (Theory bassed of battlereports "typed" by players and countless hours of "video" repors) When CG came out it was overwhelming in CG favor but thats died kff a lot on reports trickling in where CG is played
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 5, 2018 2:05:58 GMT
Yeah I’m like 4-1 against CG, and I usually am slightly worse than 50-50 against those same players. I’m not sure I understand the complaints. Theory craft. Dispite the CG look on paper even if they have all their models. CG has a glaring flaw that really any player can play to. CG is best vs low def high arm and hit box armies, with at best mat 6-7 potential. These armies generslly are just slow or are bricked up enough to allow CG to shine. As a result many forces have an advantage in accuracy and numbers over CG. (Theory bassed of battlereports "typed" by players and countless hours of "video" repors) When CG came out it was overwhelming in CG favor but thats died kff a lot on reports trickling in where CG is played Not sure where you're getting those numbers from. Syvestro has a feat to help attacks, Mackay has flare, Baldwin has deadeye as an anytime ability, Lukas has knockdowns from force hammer. Outside of caster support there's blind, guided fire, ice cage on both suppressors and combat alchemists, trancer smites which are boosted from mental force. There's a ton of ways to boost attacks so they work against high defense and every list will include at least one of them. I don't think CG is overpowered even when all the models are out, but they're decent into basically anything.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 5, 2018 3:47:03 GMT
It would literally be easier to list what CG models are not under-costed, overpowered, stupid-broken, or all of the above. Which would be... the Mechaniks maybe? I'm legitimately curious what CG figures you think are overpowered? Maybe stuff that hasn't been officially released yet? Because I've played 5 games so far against the current CG stuff and curb-stomped it every time with the Power of Dhunia theme. I just Face-Tank what they throw at me with Ragnor or Doomy3's Feats, then proceed to kill, well, pretty much everything. >.> Of course the Colossal and Tanks may change that... but their current stuff just hasn't been a thing. Unless Doomy3 and Ragnor just happen to be perfect counters? I dunno. I actually wasn't really joking about that part. The entire faction is at least somewhat ahead of the curve, and much of it is just plain broken. Gearhart may very well have the most oppressive gun line in the entire game. MacKay's assassination is literally unstoppable in many matches. Locke is overall too strong, and she is often called the weakest of their casters. Yes, most of their best lists struggle against hardcore anti-shooting, but MacKay can probably brute force past much of that, or with Locke or Syvestro in their pairing they can win with melee. List chicken? Not when you know that your opponent cannot risk dropping a list that cannot cope with Gearhart's firing squad. If you've built your melee or MacKay list to kill the likes of Krueger and Kolgrima, then you're still in control. Just wait until all of their models are out. Crucible Guard will be the new Boogeyman, I guarantee it. We may even hear a whole new trope about how limited factions + power creep = Pay to Win.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Oct 5, 2018 13:15:29 GMT
I'm legitimately curious what CG figures you think are overpowered? Maybe stuff that hasn't been officially released yet? Because I've played 5 games so far against the current CG stuff and curb-stomped it every time with the Power of Dhunia theme. I just Face-Tank what they throw at me with Ragnor or Doomy3's Feats, then proceed to kill, well, pretty much everything. >.> Of course the Colossal and Tanks may change that... but their current stuff just hasn't been a thing. Unless Doomy3 and Ragnor just happen to be perfect counters? I dunno. I actually wasn't really joking about that part. The entire faction is at least somewhat ahead of the curve, and much of it is just plain broken. Gearhart may very well have the most oppressive gun line in the entire game. MacKay's assassination is literally unstoppable in many matches. Locke is overall too strong, and she is often called the weakest of their casters. Yes, most of their best lists struggle against hardcore anti-shooting, but MacKay can probably brute force past much of that, or with Locke or Syvestro in their pairing they can win with melee. List chicken? Not when you know that your opponent cannot risk dropping a list that cannot cope with Gearhart's firing squad. If you've built your melee or MacKay list to kill the likes of Krueger and Kolgrima, then you're still in control. Just wait until all of their models are out. Crucible Guard will be the new Boogeyman, I guarantee it. We may even hear a whole new trope about how limited factions + power creep = Pay to Win. Meh this is pretty sensationalist. I very much disagree, but we will see!
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Post by sand20go on Oct 5, 2018 14:12:22 GMT
Regarding CG.
A key question to ask yourself is whether you are seeing the "big 2" that make that faction sing
Vulcan: (and arguably he is the only thing that matters).
What the Vulcan does is generate a key armor swing that tunes everything up. They have other ways (and we will see a lot of oil and flame with Gearhart when he is out) but Vulcan was released at L&L and most committed CG players and using him on the battlefield if the TO allows. In a 35 point package (think about that) You are getting Iron Bane (the usual vent for -2 Armor); Miasma (no tough/no healing which is situationally very good) and then Unnat. affliction which helps with assassination runs. His sprays provide solid infantry clearing. And really all/nearly all of the casters synergize with him. If you are stomping CG it means you are NOT seeing Vulcan because he is an amazing piece. Did I mention it is SP 6 in a faction that can further speed that up?
The second key piece is the DBR (I think that _IS_ out but I am not sure). Withering Humor Lowers living models armor -2 (and no tough). You really need to plan on seeing 3 AOEs (1 from Vulcan and 2 from DBRs every turn).
Now then "Anti-Shooting". As in WHAT Anti-shooting? The faction could care less about stealth with more sprays than an 80s hair band's dressing room and AOEs by the handful. He has access to at least one shot with Alyce into things like Menoth's Passage as well as eyeless sight. Don't forget also that Syvestro also has exposivo on his card. Never comes up in my Khador-CG matches but it would play out importantly in the menoth/Cryx match ups I think. I DO think that clouds have potential - while Alyce gives out eyeless, the main way (the Retaliater) doesn't really synergize with casters other than McKay and Gearheart. But I am not sure that matters - cause they will build with one of them a truly amazing anti-cloud army and wipe the board with you in a wonderous game of not really list chicken. Oh - and if you were hoping to deliver low Def stuff behind the Clouds Locke will simply redline-run-jackhammer a precision striking POW 21 Vulcan to where it needs to be and laugh at you.
Someone mentioned "MAT". The faction has LOTS of ways of going beyond the basic stat cards - at least one not to forget is Prospero.
And here is the funny thing - We haven't even SEEN the Railess Intercept yet (or McKay). Essentially Butcher1's feat (with additional benefits). I do wonder if it will leave her hanging out in the wind a bit (36 boxes IS a lot but I am not sure how much is left to go kill her - AND you may be having to drig through 2 RI before getting to her cause of run and gun.
Finally, not surprisingly, pilot skill is also really important (I think doubly for a debuffing faction). With about 25 games into CG with Vulcan against three players I am fairly OK against 2 players at about the same skill level as I (or a little less skilled) and winless against Juris. He is, arguably, among the best in the world (5-1 at WTC) so that. But it does suggest that CG in the hands of a good player are in a very good place. He (and I) agree - top three factions in the game.
Edit/PS.
Probably also important for the "They aren't all that" for yoiu to take a look at Gearhart+Double Retaliator+Double Infantry with UA. I honestly Don't have a clue how I am getting my stuff through that gun line for what likely is going to have to be 2 turns. Meanwhile Gearhart himself is just ruining your stuff - with access to hotshot and "Bloody well done" on his card (as well as the caddy giving him a second shot) What I am actually afraid of is that, baring something that isn't obvious, Gearhart is going to cause rage quiting since shooting can be opressive in a I go-you go game that takes 15-20 minutes to set up and unpack.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Oct 5, 2018 16:57:15 GMT
Yeah I’m like 4-1 against CG, and I usually am slightly worse than 50-50 against those same players. I’m not sure I understand the complaints. Theory craft. Dispite the CG look on paper even if they have all their models. CG has a glaring flaw that really any player can play to. CG is best vs low def high arm and hit box armies, with at best mat 6-7 potential. These armies generslly are just slow or are bricked up enough to allow CG to shine. As a result many forces have an advantage in accuracy and numbers over CG. (Theory bassed of battlereports "typed" by players and countless hours of "video" repors) When CG came out it was overwhelming in CG favor but thats died kff a lot on reports trickling in where CG is played This is...interesting? I've played 61 games so far with CG, so most of my opinions and conclusions are based on that experience, not on untested theory; when a conclusion is based only upon theory, I'll point that out. Based on that experience, I've concluded the following: 1) CG is not limited in efficacy to defeating low def models. Most of the models in the faction are RAT 5-6 base, and MAT 6-7 base. However, that is far from the end of the equation. 1a. Prospero has Vet Leader [Warjack], so in PM (and in some Magnum Opus lists) your warjacks will all be effectively RAT 6-7 and MAT7 base. 1b. Add further to the equation that the faction has effective ways to reduce the defense of enemy models. Combat Alchemists have Ice Cage as an AOE gunshot type. That means that they can reduce defense on hit; important to note that this is not on direct hit, but just on hit, so deviating AOE Ice Cages still reduce defense. Now, if you're thinking "that sounds great in theory, but can you ever really apply that debuff?" The answer is yes, you can. I use Ice Cage effectively in the majority of games where I need additional accuracy and I have them. Now if you're thinking "*scoff*, but Ice Cage doesn't work against cold-immune models," then think again. The Vulcan can remove your cold-immunity before dudes Ice Cage the models for other models to kill them (This last part is *theory only*). 1c. Suppressors have Ice Cage on a spray. Sprays ignore defensive bonuses like terrain (non-hills), stealth, ashen veil, etc. If you play a Suppressor on Prospero (like I do), then Guide Fire boosts all of the attack rolls. Again, I use this all the time to reduce the defense of models that I want to hit. 1d. Gearhart's feat reduces defense by 2, one model/unit at a time. *Theory only* 1e. Syvestro's feat is Signs & Portents (but you pick the die). Obviously a huge accuracy buff. 1f. The Retaliator is RAT6 base and has a Crit-Knockdown spray type. Less-often used, but an accuracy fixer nonetheless. 1g. Mackay has Flare on her Rat7 AOE4 gunshot. *Theory only* 1e. Lukas has a magic ability 8 Force Hammer. Accuracy fixer. 1h. Syvestro can blind enemy models with crits from Stygian Abyss. He can also reduce the DEF of an enemy Model/Unit with Transmutation. 1i. Gearhart has a gun with Shadowbind on hit, that he can fire twice per turn (at range 17). *Theory only* 2. CG is surprisingly fast. 2.a The Vulcan is base speed 6. Syvestro, Mackay, and Locke can make him speed 8 (Gearhardt can add 2" on a charge). In practice, this means that if you go first, you can often park your Vulcan 16" up from your deployment line, and threat 13" from there on Top of 2. Think about it. I've played games where I went first, and my opponent basically conceded on bottom of 1 because they weren't prepared for this (we've played it out and it went how we thought it would). 2b. Most casters have some movement buffs. None of the models (besides the artillery) are slower than speed 5 (and some are as fast as Speed 7 base), and because they are a combined arms faction (lots of guns), you can effectively engage your opponent beginning Top of 1 against armies with AD, and otherwise as soon as Bottom of 1 (if you go second) against everyone else. 3. CG never feels "outnumbered" to me.3a. CG has the option to play a good amount of relatively resilient bodies. Rocketmen have truly excellent defensive profiles. They are balanced in that you have to choose between speed and Defense for them. Their output is also mediocre, which is fine, because their job is to delay and contest. 3b. Assault Troopers and Storm Troopers are very durable against shooting. Halberdiers (or Press Gangers) with Morely are cheap, numerous, fast, hard-hitting, and incredibly annoying to kill (with tough/no-KD, and/or super tough). 3c. CG is incredibly effective at killing "bodies". Railless Sprays, Vulcan Sprays, and Suppressor sprays are fantastic volume attacks against enemy infantry. Storm Troopers are also decently effective at killing large numbers of infantry. DBR's also assist here. Take all this however you want, but if you are coming to the conclusion that CG is weak into Defense, Armor, speed, control, or any one general paradigm, it's likely that the CG players you are facing haven't learned how to play the faction effectively.
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Post by challenger on Oct 6, 2018 0:22:14 GMT
To anyone struggling vs CG i would suggest you "Git Gud" because they're a good faction but they aren't meta crushing gods. I wouldn't even say they're above the curve
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