Why the AC rocked and the other CIDs have failed
Oct 1, 2018 3:39:02 GMT
ForEver_Blight and Big Fat Troll like this
Post by sand20go on Oct 1, 2018 3:39:02 GMT
OK. Going a bit overboard in the subject line but I really do believe that the Khador Armor Corp set the gold standard for CIDs and the others have been pretty flawed - or at least questionable.
Why it is the gold standard?
Havok on the Khador page correctly pointed out that it essentially created a mini-faction. It has a HUGE degree of breadth with lots and lots of builds. A ton of the Khador caster crew can run it. While it is characterized by its box spam it does have lots of variations as one decides how many tankers, whether to go chariots, solo distribution, inclusion of which units and which UAs, different merc load outs for different tasks, etc. etc. Arguably we haven't even scratched surface yet because S0 will open up even more and different builds to try to take advantage of BCon a stick. I mean V2+Feat+HoF demo corp with Arcane might just might ruin some people's days.
It also isn't overtuned. It helps Khador play more competitively but it isn't some uber win button. I have yet to see or play in an AC game where I thought I had my opponent dead to rights on list drop. Similarily, it feels with some of my AC lists I can play into near everything with a fighting chance. That should be what we are stretching for - a great place to hit on the power curve.
Criticisms of other CIDS
I don't want to be too harsh here but on the above standard you have some obvious misses like Primal Terrors and Trenchers. Pretty quickly those CIDs led to immediate builds that leveraged the new caster (Seige 2, Amamag). There were variants (Juris at WTC showed how much ultility the block house had - though that was NOT a function of CID). But definitely not what you have seen in AC. EI remains to be seen - I have not focused a lot of attention on the Menoth meta to see if it is going to shake out. We are, however, seeming to see a lot of Judicators+Sevy which doesn't seem like variety to me. GC is a bit different but there I would say we got overtune. One guy, who is usually the "No it is fine" crowd straight out said GC is now top 3 faction in game. Not sure that is the right place for it to end up - unless PP simply wants power creep to define its yearly faction release.
Why AC worked
I think at the core was that Sorscha3 wasn't overtuned and her synergies were NOT (directly) with the Man of Wars. Her field marshal ability is brilliant in that it wants her to take MoWs but leverages Jacks. Her spell list helps them but in different ways and not dramatically better than other casters in the faction. Ditto her feat.
What this did was open up the new toys to all the other casters without worry that new toys+Sorscha would be game breaking. This then let there be a LOT more variety in builds, with at LEAST Vlad1, Vlad2, Strakov1, Butcher 3, Butcher 1, Irusk 1 and 2, Strav 2, Malokov2, and possibly even Karchev all having competitive and interesting MoW builds that each do different things with the tools they have.
They also didn't try to do too much. Legacy models like Drakhun, Mechanic UA, Shocktroopers+UA, Kovnik could have all gotten a rework. But by putting those guys as the "constant" variables we could better solve for things and get good testing out. There we no "broken" combos.
Conversely, take Lukas. Did PP ever internally test out the healing crew? My guess is no. Because essentially his "juice" mechanic isn't really a risk reward mechanic at ALL....it is rather a test for doing a standard operating proceedure quickly and efficiently in respect to fiddling with bits on the table so you don't blow your clock with all the juicing-damage-healing stuff going on with him becoming a focus 9 caster most of the game. And yet PP thought (or at least publically talked about that was the goal of the mechanic....until people figured out the right combo so it wasn't.
One of the reasons (local meta thing) I am dreading the Steelhead rework is because of the above. I am predicting flat out that SHs don't get much testing out of Merc builds. And so we will see em tuned up because...well there are new things to buy.....and then we will see what DEF ridiculous SH with Transmutation become because very little testing was done on that combo - because (rightly so) the attention was on all the core variables in Mercs. Trying to do too much is a recipe for failure.
Lessons moving forward
So the first thing I hope that PP does is learn that not all legacy models need attention - or at least there is value in NOT fixing them if you have too much on the plate. There was a lot (I think reasonable at the time but not in hindsight) complaining about the Drakhun. Lots of us love him and want two on the table. And yet if they had put that in it is a hard model to test - - over tune and you get worrisome combos with things like vlad2 or Strakov1 - especially adding in Sorscha0.
The second thing is to not overtune and over specialize the "new" CID caster. Let others have design space to play in. Like S3 look for synergies OUTSIDE of the theme. People might not immediately pick that caster up but you will open up more of the faction and, like AC, make it a mini faction.
Anyway, my take. Hopefully an interesting topic to chew on.
Why it is the gold standard?
Havok on the Khador page correctly pointed out that it essentially created a mini-faction. It has a HUGE degree of breadth with lots and lots of builds. A ton of the Khador caster crew can run it. While it is characterized by its box spam it does have lots of variations as one decides how many tankers, whether to go chariots, solo distribution, inclusion of which units and which UAs, different merc load outs for different tasks, etc. etc. Arguably we haven't even scratched surface yet because S0 will open up even more and different builds to try to take advantage of BCon a stick. I mean V2+Feat+HoF demo corp with Arcane might just might ruin some people's days.
It also isn't overtuned. It helps Khador play more competitively but it isn't some uber win button. I have yet to see or play in an AC game where I thought I had my opponent dead to rights on list drop. Similarily, it feels with some of my AC lists I can play into near everything with a fighting chance. That should be what we are stretching for - a great place to hit on the power curve.
Criticisms of other CIDS
I don't want to be too harsh here but on the above standard you have some obvious misses like Primal Terrors and Trenchers. Pretty quickly those CIDs led to immediate builds that leveraged the new caster (Seige 2, Amamag). There were variants (Juris at WTC showed how much ultility the block house had - though that was NOT a function of CID). But definitely not what you have seen in AC. EI remains to be seen - I have not focused a lot of attention on the Menoth meta to see if it is going to shake out. We are, however, seeming to see a lot of Judicators+Sevy which doesn't seem like variety to me. GC is a bit different but there I would say we got overtune. One guy, who is usually the "No it is fine" crowd straight out said GC is now top 3 faction in game. Not sure that is the right place for it to end up - unless PP simply wants power creep to define its yearly faction release.
Why AC worked
I think at the core was that Sorscha3 wasn't overtuned and her synergies were NOT (directly) with the Man of Wars. Her field marshal ability is brilliant in that it wants her to take MoWs but leverages Jacks. Her spell list helps them but in different ways and not dramatically better than other casters in the faction. Ditto her feat.
What this did was open up the new toys to all the other casters without worry that new toys+Sorscha would be game breaking. This then let there be a LOT more variety in builds, with at LEAST Vlad1, Vlad2, Strakov1, Butcher 3, Butcher 1, Irusk 1 and 2, Strav 2, Malokov2, and possibly even Karchev all having competitive and interesting MoW builds that each do different things with the tools they have.
They also didn't try to do too much. Legacy models like Drakhun, Mechanic UA, Shocktroopers+UA, Kovnik could have all gotten a rework. But by putting those guys as the "constant" variables we could better solve for things and get good testing out. There we no "broken" combos.
Conversely, take Lukas. Did PP ever internally test out the healing crew? My guess is no. Because essentially his "juice" mechanic isn't really a risk reward mechanic at ALL....it is rather a test for doing a standard operating proceedure quickly and efficiently in respect to fiddling with bits on the table so you don't blow your clock with all the juicing-damage-healing stuff going on with him becoming a focus 9 caster most of the game. And yet PP thought (or at least publically talked about that was the goal of the mechanic....until people figured out the right combo so it wasn't.
One of the reasons (local meta thing) I am dreading the Steelhead rework is because of the above. I am predicting flat out that SHs don't get much testing out of Merc builds. And so we will see em tuned up because...well there are new things to buy.....and then we will see what DEF ridiculous SH with Transmutation become because very little testing was done on that combo - because (rightly so) the attention was on all the core variables in Mercs. Trying to do too much is a recipe for failure.
Lessons moving forward
So the first thing I hope that PP does is learn that not all legacy models need attention - or at least there is value in NOT fixing them if you have too much on the plate. There was a lot (I think reasonable at the time but not in hindsight) complaining about the Drakhun. Lots of us love him and want two on the table. And yet if they had put that in it is a hard model to test - - over tune and you get worrisome combos with things like vlad2 or Strakov1 - especially adding in Sorscha0.
The second thing is to not overtune and over specialize the "new" CID caster. Let others have design space to play in. Like S3 look for synergies OUTSIDE of the theme. People might not immediately pick that caster up but you will open up more of the faction and, like AC, make it a mini faction.
Anyway, my take. Hopefully an interesting topic to chew on.