skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2018 11:02:04 GMT
As for the Skorne CID, I fully expect it to be a shitshow. Since we're unlikely to see the Turtle nerfed, that's going to be a point of fixation for a lot of players, while the Skorne community as a whole is (with a few exceptions) laboring under a misapprehension that their faction is fundamentally broken, and only propped up by the turtle. There are certainly things to be fixed in Exalted (Ancestral Guardians stand out to me as decidedly meh for being paragons of skorne martial virtue, and I hope that both Mordikaar and Makeda3 (and maybe Zaal2? he seems underwhelming) get buffs and/or a rework)...but the core of the theme (Immortals) is largely fine. Immortals are not a bad unit, they just suffer from being the only unit in the theme, which leads to inflexible list building, and a small pool of viable casters. Really, what the theme needs more than anything is to get access to a faster (or ranged) infantry option. Similarly, with a few exceptions (the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, potentially the Bronzeback), Skorne beasts are seeing play (and seeing success) at the highest levels of play. The turtle has no reason to come up at all. It's not in theme. I would expect a hard shutdown on that particular subject from pp, regardless of how players view the status of the turtle. In general you've identified the weaknesses of Exalted. I've heard there's unspoiled models in the release, so we'll see what happens later today. Another issue is that everything (aside from the SG) tops out at PS13 without alot of easy damage buffs. What I mean by that is the damage buffs are based off feats (X1, Zad2), based off boosting thus not stacking with charges (Zaal1,2) or have a significant downside, (Last Stand, Zaal1). Xerxis2 has ignite, and might do well running a more beast heavy version of the theme, and Xerxis1 has Stir the Blood (though that's got it's own limits). Skorne obviously has several casters with debuffs as well, though they tend to get less with Exalted than the buff/upkeep casters do. Anywho, the theme would benefit from a way to up their damage output, whether that comes from the models directly (WM on Guardians or something?) or a caster. Regarding beasts, yes, you've identified the biggest stinkers. Though we're very much looking forward to one of our Gargs getting looked at as well. Personally I'd like to see a rework of the Gladiator though. It's a fine functional model now, but it suffers from having the single most important animus in faction tied to it. So in a piece trade situation, you have to protect it, hold it back and treat it like your special jewel, when all it's other rules scream agressive beater. I'd just like to see rush shifted to another model, the Savage perhaps, recosted to 9-10 pts. I want to use my Gladiators for their God given purpose of beating face!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 3, 2018 11:05:58 GMT
As for the Skorne CID, I fully expect it to be a shitshow. Since we're unlikely to see the Turtle nerfed, that's going to be a point of fixation for a lot of players, while the Skorne community as a whole is (with a few exceptions) laboring under a misapprehension that their faction is fundamentally broken, and only propped up by the turtle. There are certainly things to be fixed in Exalted (Ancestral Guardians stand out to me as decidedly meh for being paragons of skorne martial virtue, and I hope that both Mordikaar and Makeda3 (and maybe Zaal2? he seems underwhelming) get buffs and/or a rework)...but the core of the theme (Immortals) is largely fine. Immortals are not a bad unit, they just suffer from being the only unit in the theme, which leads to inflexible list building, and a small pool of viable casters. Really, what the theme needs more than anything is to get access to a faster (or ranged) infantry option. Similarly, with a few exceptions (the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, potentially the Bronzeback), Skorne beasts are seeing play (and seeing success) at the highest levels of play. The turtle has no reason to come up at all. It's not in theme. I would expect a hard shutdown on that particular subject from pp, regardless of how players view the status of the turtle. In general you've identified the weaknesses of Exalted. I've heard there's unspoiled models in the release, so we'll see what happens later today. Another issue is that everything (aside from the SG) tops out at PS13 without alot of easy damage buffs. What I mean by that is the damage buffs are based off feats (X1, Zad2), based off boosting thus not stacking with charges (Zaal1,2) or have a significant downside, (Last Stand, Zaal1). Xerxis2 has ignite, and might do well running a more beast heavy version of the theme, and Xerxis1 has Stir the Blood (though that's got it's own limits). Skorne obviously has several casters with debuffs as well, though they tend to get less with Exalted than the buff/upkeep casters do. Anywho, the theme would benefit from a way to up their damage output, whether that comes from the models directly (WM on Guardians or something?) or a caster. Regarding beasts, yes, you've identified the biggest stinkers. Though we're very much looking forward to one of our Gargs getting looked at as well. Personally I'd like to see a rework of the Gladiator though. It's a fine functional model now, but it suffers from having the single most important animus in faction tied to it. So in a piece trade situation, you have to protect it, hold it back and treat it like your special jewel, when all it's other rules scream agressive beater. I'd just like to see rush shifted to another model, the Savage perhaps, recosted to 9-10 pts. I want to use my Gladiators for their God given purpose of beating face! Storm Lances were nerfed during Gravediggers CID. Nothing is safe if its op. You can hope you can keep your turtles or Hellmouths, but why would you want to keep OP models?
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Post by jisidro on Oct 3, 2018 11:09:08 GMT
With Rush being such an important animus having on more than 1 beast would be a good move for Skorne and Trolls. Seems like a simple move towards putting a new beast in play as long as it is, at least, marginnaly attractive and has different cost than the gladiator or the axer.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 3, 2018 11:25:11 GMT
Perhaps they'd go the Primal route and have it on a light and a heavy?
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 3, 2018 12:51:34 GMT
Regarding beasts, yes, you've identified the biggest stinkers. Though we're very much looking forward to one of our Gargs getting looked at as well. Personally I'd like to see a rework of the Gladiator though. It's a fine functional model now, but it suffers from having the single most important animus in faction tied to it. So in a piece trade situation, you have to protect it, hold it back and treat it like your special jewel, when all it's other rules scream agressive beater. Welcome to playing with a feral warp wolf or dire troll mauler. Fact is these kinds of models exist and planning a late game role for them is part of list design and game play. That or you take them in multiples.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 3, 2018 12:56:25 GMT
There are certainly things to be fixed in Exalted (Ancestral Guardians stand out to me as decidedly meh for being paragons of skorne martial virtue, and I hope that both Mordikaar and Makeda3 (and maybe Zaal2? he seems underwhelming) get buffs and/or a rework)...but the core of the theme (Immortals) is largely fine. Immortals are not a bad unit, they just suffer from being the only unit in the theme, which leads to inflexible list building, and a small pool of viable casters. Really, what the theme needs more than anything is to get access to a faster (or ranged) infantry option. Similarly, with a few exceptions (the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, potentially the Bronzeback), Skorne beasts are seeing play (and seeing success) at the highest levels of play. While I fundamentally agree with you that Skorne, particularly Exalted, doesn't have tremendous issues, your reasoning of "war beasts see play and therefore are fine" is flawed. Apart from the fact that 25+ war beast points per caster basically guarantees you will always be playing war beasts, Imperial War Host, one of the only themes to allow turtles, allows nothing BUT war beasts. Taking "the best of what is offered after maximizing the best model available" does not mean "they are just fine". It means they had 65ish other points to fill out and nothing else to spend them on. Are Skorne's themes all viable and functional and intuitive? Absolutely. But it is also true that all their tournament wins are carried by the turtles. Which isn't happening anymore anyway, as they didn't even break a 40% win rate in the last WTC.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 3, 2018 12:58:39 GMT
There are certainly things to be fixed in Exalted (Ancestral Guardians stand out to me as decidedly meh for being paragons of skorne martial virtue, and I hope that both Mordikaar and Makeda3 (and maybe Zaal2? he seems underwhelming) get buffs and/or a rework)...but the core of the theme (Immortals) is largely fine. Immortals are not a bad unit, they just suffer from being the only unit in the theme, which leads to inflexible list building, and a small pool of viable casters. Really, what the theme needs more than anything is to get access to a faster (or ranged) infantry option. Similarly, with a few exceptions (the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, potentially the Bronzeback), Skorne beasts are seeing play (and seeing success) at the highest levels of play. While I fundamentally agree with you that Skorne, particularly Exalted, doesn't have tremendous issues, your reasoning of "war beasts see play and therefore are fine" is flawed. Apart from the fact that 25+ war beast points per caster basically guarantees you will always be playing war beasts, Imperial War Host, one of the only themes to allow turtles, allows nothing BUT war beasts. Taking "the best of what is offered after maximizing the best model available" does not mean "they are just fine". It means they had 65ish other points to fill out and nothing else to spend them on. Are Skorne's themes all viable and functional and intuitive? Absolutely. But it is also true that all their tournament wins are carried by the turtles. Which isn't happening anymore anyway, as they didn't even break a 40% win rate in the last WTC. It does seem to imply that either the Warbeasts are fine enough to fight in the game in general or that the Turtles are so OP that they can do well vs armies with more than half of the list being dead weight.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 3, 2018 13:02:56 GMT
While I fundamentally agree with you that Skorne, particularly Exalted, doesn't have tremendous issues, your reasoning of "war beasts see play and therefore are fine" is flawed. Apart from the fact that 25+ war beast points per caster basically guarantees you will always be playing war beasts, Imperial War Host, one of the only themes to allow turtles, allows nothing BUT war beasts. Taking "the best of what is offered after maximizing the best model available" does not mean "they are just fine". It means they had 65ish other points to fill out and nothing else to spend them on. Are Skorne's themes all viable and functional and intuitive? Absolutely. But it is also true that all their tournament wins are carried by the turtles. Which isn't happening anymore anyway, as they didn't even break a 40% win rate in the last WTC. It does seem to imply that either the Warbeasts are fine enough to fight in the game in general or that the Turtles are so OP that they can do well vs armies with more than half of the list being dead weight. I think at one point, you were correct, but as CiD armies continue to come out tuned to 11, they seem less broken all the time. Again, see Skorne's 38% win rate at the WTC.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2018 15:17:15 GMT
The turtle has no reason to come up at all. It's not in theme. I would expect a hard shutdown on that particular subject from pp, regardless of how players view the status of the turtle. In general you've identified the weaknesses of Exalted. I've heard there's unspoiled models in the release, so we'll see what happens later today. Another issue is that everything (aside from the SG) tops out at PS13 without alot of easy damage buffs. What I mean by that is the damage buffs are based off feats (X1, Zad2), based off boosting thus not stacking with charges (Zaal1,2) or have a significant downside, (Last Stand, Zaal1). Xerxis2 has ignite, and might do well running a more beast heavy version of the theme, and Xerxis1 has Stir the Blood (though that's got it's own limits). Skorne obviously has several casters with debuffs as well, though they tend to get less with Exalted than the buff/upkeep casters do. Anywho, the theme would benefit from a way to up their damage output, whether that comes from the models directly (WM on Guardians or something?) or a caster. Regarding beasts, yes, you've identified the biggest stinkers. Though we're very much looking forward to one of our Gargs getting looked at as well. Personally I'd like to see a rework of the Gladiator though. It's a fine functional model now, but it suffers from having the single most important animus in faction tied to it. So in a piece trade situation, you have to protect it, hold it back and treat it like your special jewel, when all it's other rules scream agressive beater. I'd just like to see rush shifted to another model, the Savage perhaps, recosted to 9-10 pts. I want to use my Gladiators for their God given purpose of beating face! Storm Lances were nerfed during Gravediggers CID. Nothing is safe if its op. You can hope you can keep your turtles or Hellmouths, but why would you want to keep OP models? Because this faction falls on it's face hard without derpy. We have no issue with him being rebalanced, as long as enough of the rest of the beasts can pick up the slack. Right now, nope.
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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 3, 2018 15:42:50 GMT
I believe that skorne players have become so focused on turtles (which are indeed "good" for their cost) that they have forgotten other stuff exists. Saying that skorne currently sucks without the turtle is just plain wrong.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2018 16:03:13 GMT
I believe that skorne players have become so focused on turtles (which are indeed "good" for their cost) that they have forgotten other stuff exists. Saying that skorne currently sucks without the turtle is just plain wrong. Skorne sucks at the highest levels of competitive play and is fine but not spectacular at every other level. For my personal play, Skorne is great! I don't compete at a national level except at the ATC, because it's in my backyard. But the supposed goal is to balance things at the highest level and Skorne just doesn't measure up in many ways. We focus on the turtle because it's the single best piece in the faction and it synergises beautifully with the themes it's allowed in. At it's core, what we lack are 1) highly tuned warlocks. We've basically got Rasheth as our #1 and the meta is extremely well versed with him at this point. 2) fun but not optimized themes. Some of this is faction construction, some of this is poor decisions by designers. For instance, our Gargs aren't allowed in 1 theme for...reasons and benefit from theme benefits in none of our there. In Imperial Warhost the point threshold is 30 pts. Because of Beast Handlers, if you want 3 free models you get no solos. Your remaining points MUST go to Handlers. It's not a difficult concept but a threshold of 25 pts vs 30 wouldn't result in any more powerful lists point wise, but would allow for much greater variety. Not having guns in MoW is stupid. It was proven stupid in SotT where you NEEDED guns. 3) we just don't have great, expensive solos to get for free. IW and MoW work well enough for that, but the other themes get 4 pointers or less.
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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 3, 2018 16:35:38 GMT
Skorne does not suck.
Rashet is great. Morghul 2 laughs in the face of PT and GD. Makeda 1 is disgusting. Makeda3 blends infantry lists as well.
Molik is great. The Mammoth is great. The BB and the gladiator are great... need i go on? Perhaps they are overshadowed by the turtle and can use a points tweak here and there but they are good.
The best player in my country runs skorne and he gets consistent results.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Oct 3, 2018 16:47:13 GMT
My primary opponent these days has been playing Skorne and only Skorne since they released and is terrifying with everything you put in front of him at this point.
What solos does Skorne have access to that are 4+ points? I don't feel that my Troll solos are really game breaking generally, but they have a synergistic faction to help them. Something I do think Skorne sometimes struggles with.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2018 16:51:52 GMT
Skorne does not suck. Rashet is great. Morghul 2 laughs in the face of PT and GD. Makeda 1 is disgusting. Makeda3 blends infantry lists as well. Molik is great. The Mammoth is great. The BB and the gladiator are great... need i go on? Perhaps they are overshadowed by the turtle and can use a points tweak here and there but they are good. The best player in my country runs skorne and he gets consistent results. I'm sorry, you just refrenced Makeda3 and the Mammoth. You're credibility is...real low. Those are exactly some of the models we're looking to get fixed. Do you also think Sword Knights are great? And individuals can get great work out of things that click with them. JVM uses some really weird stuff sometimes and still hands out assbeatings. That doesn't make all his lists objectively good. Just good for him.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 3, 2018 17:01:46 GMT
My primary opponent these days has been playing Skorne and only Skorne since they released and is terrifying with everything you put in front of him at this point. What solos does Skorne have access to that are 4+ points? I don't feel that my Troll solos are really game breaking generally, but they have a synergistic faction to help them. Something I do think Skorne sometimes struggles with. We have exactly 0 solos worth more than 4 pts. The TyComm occupies a similar purpose and is 6 pts. We have 1 6 pt command attachment. Every other warrior model we can take for free is 4 points or less. The only synergistic effect any of them have (aside from paingiver task masters) is veteran leader and the Dakars abilities. Though fairly often it's just better for the Dakar to shoot. Edit, I'm totally forgetting Exalted. But they're going into CiD so who knows how they'll end up. P.S. right now, they're not worth not free... except Hakaar, he's fine. Anyway, I don't think Skorne is totally busted bad. They haven't been since the Great Skorne Errata. What they are is lots of little non-optimized parts that lead the whole to be a little clunky and a little weak. The Turtles and how they interact with themes are very optimized. It's why they feel so much stronger than everything else we have.
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