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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 2, 2018 22:58:02 GMT
I want to express that I found the Armored Corps CID to be a miserable experience, with only moderate outcomes for a number of the models involved. The level of anti-Khador trolling during that CID (and others!) was toxic. The best thing the Armored Corps theme itself got was Advance Move. The reason the theme is popular is because it is currently the only Khador theme that can adequately combine melee, range, and scenario presence in one army. It’s possible to build balanced lists with it. It’s not a bad theme, but it’s also not nearly at the level of a lot of others that have gone through CID. I’m not going to rehash my extensive feelings on this particular CID, because it is exhausting. All I choose to say right now is that a number of other CIDs started with “stuff is really good” and went up from there, while Armored Corps started with “two models are obviously good, and by the way here’s a bunch of inexplicable changes to other models not remotely related to Armored Corps, and also, we’re going to be hyper-cautious with any buffs and be actively hostile to a number of positive and reasonable suggestions, completely ignoring community input on some items for no explicable reason.” (See Man-o-War Kovnik’s drive.) Demo Corps are barely palatable with their expensive character CA, and there’s zero reason to ever take multiple units at this time. Bombardiers came out in a good spot, except all of their abilities are tied to a CA, and I detest “auto-include” or “required” models so much. But...anyway, stopping myself before I get too far into the weeds... Too many of these other themes start out with free candy and handjobs and get better from there. They completely patch over the weaknesses of the models for exactly zero drawback or real cost. (“Oh no I have to take a solo to get X!”, except the theme only has 2 or 3 solos anyway, and you’re getting them for free just by taking models you were going to take.) There are a few flat-out broken things that made it through despite protest. Chosen charging you on turn 2 if they get first turn and you advance out of your DZ more than 3”? That’s cool, but moving one rule off the Bombardier CA to the base unit would.... Gaaaah, okay, okay, stopping now... You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
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Post by michael on Oct 2, 2018 23:14:42 GMT
You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
Armored Corps would cease to be a viable theme without Advance Move. It's basically an auto-loss on a number of scenarios. Play it without Advance Move -- you'll see.
There's a difference between "fixing fatal weakness of legacy model type that was never designed to be run 100% by itself" and "patching over just about any counters to an army just because you can."
What did Blighted Ogrun lack pre-CID? They lacked accuracy and they were vulnerable to guns. Shoot down enough on approach, and they were manageable. What did their CID give them? An astounding amount of accuracy fixing, plus extra survivability, plus a massive fix to the "weak to guns" problem. (Good luck shooting any of their stuff with Chosen in your face.)
Exemplars? Ranged attacks, pathfinder, deliverability. What did they get in spades? Quality ranged attacks, survivability, deliverability, terrain mitigation, with recursion on top to boot.
And so on, and so forth...
But, anyway, I'm tired of going around in circles on this.
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Post by challenger on Oct 2, 2018 23:45:51 GMT
You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
Armored Corps would cease to be a viable theme without Advance Move. It's basically an auto-loss on a number of scenarios. Play it without Advance Move -- you'll see.
There's a difference between "fixing fatal weakness of legacy model type that was never designed to be run 100% by itself" and "patching over just about any counters to an army just because you can."
What did Blighted Ogrun lack pre-CID? They lacked accuracy and they were vulnerable to guns. Shoot down enough on approach, and they were manageable. What did their CID give them? An astounding amount of accuracy fixing, plus extra survivability, plus a massive fix to the "weak to guns" problem. (Good luck shooting any of their stuff with Chosen in your face.)
Exemplars? Ranged attacks, pathfinder, deliverability. What did they get in spades? Quality ranged attacks, survivability, deliverability, terrain mitigation, with recursion on top to boot.
And so on, and so forth...
But, anyway, I'm tired of going around in circles on this.
you list a weakness of blighted ogruns as guns and then say they received a fix to their gun weakness - no they didn't. a very commonly cited counter to Primal Terrors is a strong gunline. Same for exemplar - they were weak to guns pre-cid, they remain weak to guns post CID. 12/15 is a really bad statline
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 2, 2018 23:48:10 GMT
You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
Armored Corps would cease to be a viable theme without Advance Move. It's basically an auto-loss on a number of scenarios. Play it without Advance Move -- you'll see.
There's a difference between "fixing fatal weakness of legacy model type that was never designed to be run 100% by itself" and "patching over just about any counters to an army just because you can."
What did Blighted Ogrun lack pre-CID? They lacked accuracy and they were vulnerable to guns. Shoot down enough on approach, and they were manageable. What did their CID give them? An astounding amount of accuracy fixing, plus extra survivability, plus a massive fix to the "weak to guns" problem. (Good luck shooting any of their stuff with Chosen in your face.)
Exemplars? Ranged attacks, pathfinder, deliverability. What did they get in spades? Quality ranged attacks, survivability, deliverability, terrain mitigation, with recursion on top to boot.
And so on, and so forth...
But, anyway, I'm tired of going around in circles on this.
Slow models in slow faction going faster than fast models in fast faction is okay, because MOW need to be nearly halfway across the board and in shield wall top of 1 (or much further for the chariots), but fixing weaknesses of other factions (while still leaving some weaknesses) is not okay. Got it. Honestly, I wasn't impressed by your logic in the Khador CID (as I recall, you argued from the Week 1 suppression tanker being okay right up until the bitter end), and I'm not impressed by it now (when all available data shows good, flexible khador players doing quite well at events, while khador players who refuse to adapt to the meta continue to lose). PT is very shootable. It loses hard to Nemo3 (as in, it is not even a dogganm game, everything just dies), and to average CG gunlines. I consider Krueger2 (which is, after a fashion, a gunline) a moderately advantaged matchup into it, depending on the precise build (if they take warspears, krueger2's stock goes way up). Many gunlines need a hard hitting melee element to stop the chosen from just running into you lines and engaging everything, but that's not exactly a novel proposition for gunlines. It also struggles into high volume, low-to-moderate stat infantry, because an intelligent opponent won't just let warmongers berserk everything, and the attack volume of the list is actually rather low when you get down to it. Skarre3 40 trolls is a tough matchup for it, for instance, and I imagine it wouldn't fare too well into that Terminus 60+ McThrall list, either. Anamag excels at demolishing pretty much any list that relies on high stats to compensate for a low model count. So don't play that game against her - either kill her stuff before it can get your high value targets, a la Nemo3, or don't feed her a bunch of high value targets. No one cares if you're Mat 12, P+S 20 when you're attacking a Mechanithrall (or <insert faction-appropriate low-cost infantry>). She's strong into a meta that is tending more towards low numbers of high value targets than infantry swarms, but she has weaknesses. Exemplars (with the possible exception of the Judicator, which seems to be at least somewhat overtuned) do indeed have access to a lot of solutions to their (many) problems, but they often have a hard time fitting them all into a list. That's good for variety, not bad. I also don't recall them actually getting any more terrain mitgation than they already had access to in theme. Also, it's misleading to say that Exemplar 'got access' to deliverability/survivability/etc. Yes, certain units became more survivable. One character model got a speed buff. one unit got more deliverable (albeit on the back of a UA). But those aren't 'theme-wide buffs', they're specific characteristics of individual units. If you want to deliver a whole list, you either need to lean heavily on those models in list building, or (as before) take a caster who delivers your army for you.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 2, 2018 23:48:11 GMT
I can deal with advanced move and desperate pace on man o wars, although I dislike advance move on the chariots immensely.
I don't understand how you think PT got its weakness to guns patched. Currently gun lining is one of the only successful strategies against PT. Same with exemplars.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 2, 2018 23:50:21 GMT
I can deal with advanced move and desperate pace on man o wars, although I dislike advance move on the chariots immensely. I don't understand how you think PT got its weakness to guns patched. Currently gun lining is one of the only successful strategies against PT. Same with exemplars. This is like the 3rd time I've agreed with you this month, and it's making me deeply uncomfortable.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 2, 2018 23:54:09 GMT
I can deal with advanced move and desperate pace on man o wars, although I dislike advance move on the chariots immensely. I don't understand how you think PT got its weakness to guns patched. Currently gun lining is one of the only successful strategies against PT. Same with exemplars. This is like the 3rd time I've agreed with you this month, and it's making me deeply uncomfortable. Finally people are coming around to the right way of thinking
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Post by michael on Oct 3, 2018 0:30:31 GMT
(Ok something weird is going on with quotes here, hang on..)
I'm not even bothering here. You were one of the the biggest pains in the ass during that CID. I'll pretend you don't exist, you pretend I don't exist, and we'll go about our lives, okay?
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Post by michael on Oct 3, 2018 0:33:24 GMT
You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
Are you somehow finding ways to magically bypass the Chosen in your face and shoot down the rest of the list? Because I haven't! And, 12/15 is where Exemplars start. They get buffs layered on and suddenly they're 12/17, or 14/17, or the Cinerators and Bastions are absorbing shots while the Vengers bear down on your army. Or, they get shot, and they come right back thanks to the Shrine, or High Reclaimer 1/2, etc. Or, 50% get shot down, 25% return, and they deal just as much damage as the full unit anyway thanks to Battle Driven and all the various other retributive abilities buffing their stats.
For what it's worth: I didn't like the 12" Tactician bubble. I argued against it, in fact. You can go dig up my CID posts where I say that I much preferred the Veteran Leader bonus.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 3, 2018 0:36:30 GMT
(Ok something weird is going on with quotes here, hang on..)
I'm not even bothering here. You were one of the the biggest pains in the ass during that CID. I'll pretend you don't exist, you pretend I don't exist, and we'll go about our lives, okay? As long as you keep spreading blatant misinformation on a public forum, nope. Not gonna happen. I don't give a shit if you feel the need to ignore me, rather than actually engaging with my arguments (as I recall, you relied heavily on strawmen and ad hominems during the Khador CID too), but I'm gonna continue to call out your bad logic as and where I see it.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 3, 2018 1:19:18 GMT
You seem to be showing your biases here. You don't like it when models and themes patch over weaknesses for no cost but like advanced move and desperate pace making man o wars faster than a huge amount of lists in the game. Wasn't being slow and clunky a weakness of man o war? Why is 12" tactician and so many speed boosts justified?
Are you somehow finding ways to magically bypass the Chosen in your face and shoot down the rest of the list? Because I haven't! And, 12/15 is where Exemplars start. They get buffs layered on and suddenly they're 12/17, or 14/17, or the Cinerators and Bastions are absorbing shots while the Vengers bear down on your army. Or, they get shot, and they come right back thanks to the Shrine, or High Reclaimer 1/2, etc. Or, 50% get shot down, 25% return, and they deal just as much damage as the full unit anyway thanks to Battle Driven and all the various other retributive abilities buffing their stats.
For what it's worth: I didn't like the 12" Tactician bubble. I argued against it, in fact. You can go dig up my CID posts where I say that I much preferred the Veteran Leader bonus.
If your opponent is putting chosen into your face they have given you your entire army to deal with them efficiently. Their statlines are good, but they aren't dissimilar to the statlines of Trollkin Cavalry who are able to be dealt with handily. They should have been less potent than they are, but they aren't impossible to defeat either mainly because as they are expensive strictly melee models the only way they make good value is if they commit, and its hard to make their commitment worth the points in one go. So, like a lot of cavalry units, you need to engage into maximum risk with close to full commitment. Backline Weapon masters and Heavies can help take some down, often your caster can get involved as PT doesn't have a lot of assassination threat. Models who need to commit to make good value often need to be exceptional if they are to stand on their own 2 (4) feet. So even if they are overtuned, the effect is less egregious than when models who can make value from long distance is overtuned. Exemplars are very hard hitting and they have some defensive tech but the only thing I can think of that makes this truly a problem is the Judicator who is overperforming in most offensive cases. If the Judicators ranged attrition became reasonable rather than absurd then Exemplars would merely be "very good" rather than "silly" Edit: Vet Leader and Tactician are both dumb when they are keyed off "models in this theme" and Vet Leader especially has contributed to the devaluation of Defence.
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 3, 2018 2:53:45 GMT
Settle down boys. If you're going to argue, don't strawman or ad-hominem people.
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Post by beardmonk on Oct 3, 2018 8:04:48 GMT
I do find a it a little concerning that over a year after the process has started, the CID process and its implementation is still a divisive issue.
Has PP even given any indication that they would revise the process of CID itself, based on feedback? A CID of CID?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 3, 2018 8:21:57 GMT
To the OP. Couldn't you view the fact that AC is playable with a high assortment of casters as a failing of CiD to produce a good outcome for Sorcha3? I know several Khador players who's opinion of her is that she's competitive garbage but fine in a non-competitive, or limited caster format. A guy won WTC solo masters playing only her. You can tell your friends she's fine.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 3, 2018 9:24:37 GMT
... Armored Corps would cease to be a viable theme without Advance Move. It's basically an auto-loss on a number of scenarios. Play it without Advance Move -- you'll see. ... Perhaps what going on here is that AC wouldn't be as flexible requiring Chariots and/or Drakhuns to ahead and deny scenario while the slow guys moved up? As it is it's just another army parked in the middle of the table bottom of 1.
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