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Post by greytemplar on May 11, 2017 17:13:38 GMT
I still don't think there's anything they could add for Errants, and based on Pagani's comments on the CID forums it seems like he atleast did not get the memo. I very much doubt the exemplar theme was designed with the VoJ in mind as such. They also seem to think that the Vessel's healin miracle will make Bastions and cinerators amazing. I can assure them it will not. You can give us all the healing you want, but it's not going to change the fact that Bastions and Cinerators just die when they get hit. Healing is moot if you're dead. Sanguine bond is no help with only a 3" range. If you're getting charged by even crap infantry, you're still going to lose most of the bastions. Maybe 1-2 will survive to be healed. But 2 bastions ain't doing squat to a unit of infantry.
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Post by greytemplar on May 11, 2017 17:20:25 GMT
I think that it's because he can now heal them up to nearly full health in a round with the help of the Vessel. Before it was with only 1box. Theoretically yes. The issue is most of the time your bastions and cinerators are just going to die. They're not going to survive to get healed. The first charging pow10 due is going to leave your bastion on 1 box. Then the 2nd guy is going to finish him off, and you have to decide if it's worth transferring to another bastion(who also got charged by 1-2 dudes). You're losing that trade, and you're going to lose your bastions before they get to be healed by the Seneschal and the Vessel. You could play Harbinger and martyr to keep them alive, but at that point you might as well have played Cinerators. But you're still crutching on a single caster, in a meta that hard counter's squishy casters who can't hide and only sit on 5-7 hp. If we went back to 8 wounds and Sanguine bond was any bastion in command, then we would have something. That extra 15 hit points and access to all of the unit's 40 hit boxes actually makes this viable. going down to 25 and a stupid 3" range basically made it worthless. Pow11 doesn't help either.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 11, 2017 17:37:08 GMT
I think that it's because he can now heal them up to nearly full health in a round with the help of the Vessel. Before it was with only 1box. Theoretically yes. The issue is most of the time your bastions and cinerators are just going to die. They're not going to survive to get healed. He is talking about a testament list, so that's kind've implied. Think about it, You opponent wipes out all but one of your Bastions in one turn, then you cast Raise the Dead four times and then heal them all with the Vessel for 1-3 points. I know it's far from optimal, but it is an option that starts to bring Bastions closer to playable. The sad thing is that it works better with Cinerators, Vengers and Flamebringers, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying. (Bastions are one of two units that I think are unplayable in the Protectorate and I really want them to work.)
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Post by greytemplar on May 11, 2017 17:43:27 GMT
Yeah, but your bastions aren't going to ever get swings. They'll get killed. Brought back and healed, then killed again.
Even if they were cinerators, you wouldn't even get your vengeance moves because you'd bring them back after that happened.
I just really hope the Bastions and Cinerators get put into CID. They really need it. Cinerators are close to playable, but they mandate you have Defenders ward or Inviolable Resolve because without it they still die instantly.
This is actually why I am pushing for Door's of Judgement to no longer be once per turn. Then if we were playing the revival game we'd still get some attacks out of our dudes even if they just kept getting whacked back down.
Bastions basically need to be able to survive the alpha. Sanguine Bond needs to remove it's range restriction then either they need to go back to 8 boxes OR gain Impervious Flesh.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 11, 2017 17:59:07 GMT
The thing that makes this help Cinerators more than Bastions is the 3" move. It at least helps them move further up the board.
But yes, I agree that you need a defensive buff on the MMW to make them survivable, and in my first game with Bastions the other night, it didn't even help do that.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 11, 2017 18:16:57 GMT
Sorry, NO. This theme was made when VOJ was nothing more than an implicit inclusion in "BE update" on a whiteboard. If the Scrutator model thing was a deliberate inclusion planned that far, it would have been a week one inclusion and not something shoved in after the leak.
Heck, we wouldn't care about the battle engine update in theme until they fixed doors to give souls, probably.
Here's the thing, how would you know either? We're coming in from 2 fundamentally opposing viewpoints- mine is that this is the plan all along and yours is the "PP is flying by the seat of their pants as they don't know what they're doing". What would they have done? Put the Scrutator tag in Week 1 when it had absolutely no relevance to what needed to be tested in CID? Or wait until they leak the Theme Force, and then add the relevant testing variable (in this case Scrutator for theme force inclusion) immediately when it fits into CID release schedule. Look, you and I will never agree on this, but here's something that was said during a "State of the Game" cast that was released just now: all this salt and debate is coming from the perspective of a bunch of mostly-amateur game designers (ie: us) and professional game designers and testers who rely on this for their livelihood. Personally, I'm putting my bets on the latter. Are you suggesting that they knew the theme force would leak in time to change vessel in CID after people knew why anyone would care, and didn't even tell some of their own employees about it? Seems a lot more difficult that just allowing the VOJ in theme anyway, and in such a bizarre and underhanded manner. I think they're just fixing a mistake in the most face saving way possible.
As for the Testament/bastions/voj combo, there's a bit more there than planned for IMO. they have set defense, right? add ashen veil to that, and suddenly their main melee threats can either only get to one/two of them (warjacks) or need to hit DEF 15 (charging infantry).
It's still not great, but it's there, and makes them....serviceable. I think.
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Post by Swampmist on May 11, 2017 18:27:11 GMT
I could see the healing being good on Cinerators under certain casters (harby and vinnyD come to mind, and there are probably others.) If they can get there their damage output is pretty good in general, and I don't doubt that we have casters who can make the combo work.
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Post by gargs454 on May 11, 2017 18:51:50 GMT
Well, considering that the NQ with the theme in it releases this month and there's still three more weeks of CID left on the battle engines, then yeah, I think its pretty likely they knew that the theme would be revealed before the CID was over.
Doesn't mean that making the VOJ a scrutator wasn't something that was added at the last minute when people were underwhelmed by the reveal of course, but it certainly doesn't stretch the bounds of plausibility.
Additionally, there are other potential benefits to making the Vessel a scrutator. It allows for #designspace in the future. Sure, currently the designation is only going to have the effect of making it playable in theme, but who's to say that there won't be future scrutator models/units that give buffs to all scrutators?
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Post by macdaddy on May 11, 2017 18:58:38 GMT
Well, considering that the NQ with the theme in it releases this month and there's still three more weeks of CID left on the battle engines, then yeah, I think its pretty likely they knew that the theme would be revealed before the CID was over. Doesn't mean that making the VOJ a scrutator wasn't something that was added at the last minute when people were underwhelmed by the reveal of course, but it certainly doesn't stretch the bounds of plausibility. Additionally, there are other potential benefits to making the Vessel a scrutator. It allows for #designspace in the future. Sure, currently the designation is only going to have the effect of making it playable in theme, but who's to say that there won't be future scrutator models/units that give buffs to all scrutators? wait theres 3 more weeks of CID left for BE? I don't think well need that much time to sort them out at this point lol
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Post by Swampmist on May 11, 2017 18:59:27 GMT
Well, considering that the NQ with the theme in it releases this month and there's still three more weeks of CID left on the battle engines, then yeah, I think its pretty likely they knew that the theme would be revealed before the CID was over. Doesn't mean that making the VOJ a scrutator wasn't something that was added at the last minute when people were underwhelmed by the reveal of course, but it certainly doesn't stretch the bounds of plausibility. Additionally, there are other potential benefits to making the Vessel a scrutator. It allows for #designspace in the future. Sure, currently the designation is only going to have the effect of making it playable in theme, but who's to say that there won't be future scrutator models/units that give buffs to all scrutators? wait theres 3 more weeks of CID left for BE? I don't think well need that much time to sort them out at this point lol Yeah, pretty sure next week is the wrap-up week.
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Alealexi
BattleBox Champ
Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
Posts: 55
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Post by Alealexi on May 11, 2017 19:40:59 GMT
wait theres 3 more weeks of CID left for BE? I don't think well need that much time to sort them out at this point lol Yeah, pretty sure next week is the wrap-up week. If I remember correctly Pagani or Soles said that CID only last a minimum of 3 weeks. Steamroller already ended this week. This week may be the last week for BE and Bane models.
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Post by Gaston on May 11, 2017 20:07:55 GMT
CID will average 4 weeks. SR17 was 3 weeks in part bc they had the Bane and BE CIDs going jointly.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on May 11, 2017 20:12:09 GMT
Look, you and I will never agree on this, but here's something that was said during a "State of the Game" cast that was released just now: all this salt and debate is coming from the perspective of a bunch of mostly-amateur game designers (ie: us) and professional game designers and testers who rely on this for their livelihood. Personally, I'm putting my bets on the latter. Of course we have great synergy with the Designers, they are just such an amazing gang, that could knock us all down, or make us stationary in anticipation. What I'm saying is not necessarily. Whilst they are indeed professionals they operate with completely different rules at times. I'm having a hard time engaging with your comment.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 11, 2017 20:14:24 GMT
I'm having a hard time engaging with your comment. That comment is more accurate than before. It compensates for the support this choir of a forum would provide to a comment Jacker like you that it no longer provides.
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Post by gargs454 on May 11, 2017 20:32:00 GMT
Yeah, pretty sure next week is the wrap-up week. If I remember correctly Pagani or Soles said that CID only last a minimum of 3 weeks. Steamroller already ended this week. This week may be the last week for BE and Bane models. Ahh, for some reason thought it was generally 6 weeks. My bad. Regardless, considering that the NQs always get spoiled early, it was hardly a surprise that someone spoiled it early. As I said, that doesn't mean that they had always planned for it to become a Scrutator model (nor even that it will end up that way) but it also certainly doesn't mean that it was never a consideration until the underwhelming response. I mean heck, sure, the Vessel being playable in the Exemplar theme is nice, but it still doesn't exactly make that theme a home run. FWIW: I do know that somebody proposed on the Dev Talk to make the Vessel playable in the theme so it is plausible that it was a result of that talk. Just not a guarantee. As for this week's CID, I do actually like the fact that they are specifically looking for testing results with Cinnies and Bastions as they have I'm sure noticed that neither are really played. Personally I don't think this really fixes them except maybe in a niche case with Harby where you can use a combination of martyrdom, doors, and the heal to keep them up and running but still not convinced that makes them worth taking. I'm inclined to think that the KEs might still make for better choices in those lists. But, at least they are looking into it.
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