granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 24, 2018 16:21:28 GMT
This is honestly my biggest concern. The Mammoth is competing against 2 turtles in winds and imperial warhost and 2 SG in exalted. It can also be run in DoA where it doesn't compete against any battle engines. So where do we want it to fit? In winds or exalted not only does it compete for space from the battle engines but it doesn't give you free points like they do in those themes. I mean there can be something with the fact that it costs you WB points instead of from your 75 list points as exalted and winds wants to spend 40 to 60 points of the list on stuff that gets you free stuff.
I just have this feeling that if it doesn't compete with the BE it doesn't get brought to the table. Even if it does compete there could be issues bringing 3 huge bases in one list. Though honestly I am not sure exalted wants to run two battle engines. Maybe that is fine. Maybe the entire point of the model is something pretty that really isn't competitive but is worth more than it is now.
Maybe it can compete with 2 SG just fine with only a few tweeks? I honestly am not sure, I have only just started playing exalted with one SG. I have 3 games in and I am only getting the feel of the list so far. And I have played my mammoth in mk3 less than 10 times.
Well that problem needs to be approached from both sides and I'm fairly confident it will. PP said they were not looking to nerf the turtle from the dev talk at lock and load as reported by Jay from chain attack in June. What do you think has happened to change their mind? The WTC results seem to validate PP's stance. I admit I do not follow warmachine news as closely as I used to. Has something happened?
lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/112337/thread
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 24, 2018 16:38:45 GMT
Nothing specific. They said the turtles were not in the danger zone ~4 months ago. And they might be now. They did say something similar about Ghost Fleet after all. I personally just can't see how that model is remotely okay.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 24, 2018 16:50:39 GMT
Which aspect of its gun is considered the downgrade from Mk 2? The AOE or RoF? I remember the Mammoth being considered the only viable Gargantuan because of its gun. It gained 2" in Range, lost 1" on AOE, RAT increased by 1, and went from RoF: 3 to D3+1. The big downgrade was not being able to put snipe on the gun anymore. So the range used to be effectively 14 and now it is 12. This did take a bunch of points and that was a problem in mk2 but it was considered generally a good package. The AOE is less of a problem but some infantry you really needed good blast damage for in mk2 and the mammoth kind of worked there but I don't know if that is the case for MK3 as the high def infantry I can think of are blast immune somehow. If the AOE is supposed to kill high def infantry it seems like it would need a continuous effect to do that.
So losing 2" of range makes it trash, or was it the culmination of the range+aoe+mod of rof? Or not list Rush at all and just state, "When this model Runs it gains Pathfinder can can move three times its SPD instead of two." End result is the same. We're probably arguing over details here, but I don't think that's so great an idea. That would give them an 18" run with Xerxis2, which is just too much. It would also give them a 12" base run, which I also think is too much. And it would stack with Rush, which is probably not such a good idea. Fair point, I did forget about the synergies there.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Sept 24, 2018 17:44:53 GMT
2) Rush-while-running. I wish all Titans would gain that rule. Basically like the heavy boiler on the Kodiak, but worded to explicitly give Rush while running. That would have the advantage of including pathfinder (which the Kodiak has baseline) and the limitation of not stacking with Rush from other sources (such as the animus). Alternatively SPD5, but I think the former is more elegant. Either would help it get into the fight in time. The rule mentioned under 2) could be worded like this: Unstoppable advance: This model gains Rush while running (insert rule text of Rush here).
Or not list Rush at all and just state, "When this model Runs it gains Pathfinder can can move three times its SPD instead of two." End result is the same. The goal really should be to get the Mammoth, and all Gargantua, to be on the same footing as most of the colossals. This is especially true for the Mammoth, as he bears the most resemblance to them: slow, meaty, good melee output but too slow to get there, and big guns. However, its ranged output is weak By comparison to those colossals. It's too slow to have meaningful melee output. Lastly, it's pretty expensive for how "able to take it in the face" that it is. A "melee only" gargantuan is probably not viable as a concept. Their base size is too large, too unwieldy, too easily blocked for them to serve this function. Gargantua all have "melee as a backup" thanks to their massive size, but it probably won't work as their primary means of providing meaningful effect on the battlefield. So I'm inclined to address to have it function as an artillery piece first, resembling the Conquest. Given the sheer size of the cannons on the model, this doesn't seem unreasonable from a fluff perspective. Compared to the Conquest right now, it has significantly worse use in an anti infantry role, worse survivability, and worse threat range. It's also worth mentioning that I've literally never seen Conquest in a list, so even if we are chasing that paradigm, the Mammoth would need to do it better to be considered a success. Which aspect of its gun is considered the downgrade from Mk 2? The AOE or RoF? I remember the Mammoth being considered the only viable Gargantuan because of its gun. It gained 2" in Range, lost 1" on AOE, RAT increased by 1, and went from RoF: 3 to D3+1. Should the gun get an effect, such as Critical Pitch or Critical Knockdown? I don't ever recall the Mammoth being considered viable in Mk2. It may have been the "most viable Gargantuan", but that was a pretty low bar in Mk2 (not counting the Blightgorgers). Also, its mk2 stats are pretty much irrelevant. The editions are too different for these kinds of comparisons to be helpful.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 24, 2018 17:59:58 GMT
The big downgrade was not being able to put snipe on the gun anymore. So the range used to be effectively 14 and now it is 12. This did take a bunch of points and that was a problem in mk2 but it was considered generally a good package. The AOE is less of a problem but some infantry you really needed good blast damage for in mk2 and the mammoth kind of worked there but I don't know if that is the case for MK3 as the high def infantry I can think of are blast immune somehow. If the AOE is supposed to kill high def infantry it seems like it would need a continuous effect to do that.
So losing 2" of range makes it trash, or was it the culmination of the range+aoe+mod of rof? Well it is more than just the 2" though honestly the couple of times I played the mammoth in mk3 the 2" was a pretty big deal.
The blast damage not being as helpful is a problem as well as the PGBH being less effective. The fact that it only gets you free points in one theme and that theme doesn't allow soulwards is a big deal as well as is the glad becoming expensive enough that it isn't brought often due to its reduced survivabiliy. I also wouldn't say the mammoth was great in mk2 the package of mammoth, raider, soulward, paingivers was considered good but clearly wasn't a tournament staple or anything like that. It was good not great. So it has slipped from good to mediocre.
So total is the paingiver effectiveness is a big deal as the entire package could be run by 4 PGBH in mk2 now you need 4 just for the mammoth. This also makes the increase in ROF almost not matter as the extra fury generated didn't matter at all in mk2 as the PGBH just wiped everything off. You lose on the extra range. You lose on the trick of giving the soulward snipe for a 12" gun giving the package some end game options that just don't exist now. The biggest hitter in mk3 is the SA just does the job better for far fewer points even after you count in the PGBH.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 24, 2018 19:15:16 GMT
I don't ever recall the Mammoth being considered viable in Mk2. It may have been the "most viable Gargantuan", but that was a pretty low bar in Mk2 (not counting the Blightgorgers). It was called that because it had the only effective ranged attack of the Gargantuans. Hence, why I'm focusing on the gun itself. Also, its mk2 stats are pretty much irrelevant. The editions are too different for these kinds of comparisons to be helpful.
I rather disagree in this case. The mechanics behind everything still apply now as they did back then. Range and AOE still work the same. RAT still works the same. ROF is different, but far easier for the Garg to use. The only thing that really has changed is what abilities can/cannot synergise with it now and which ones are available.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Sept 24, 2018 20:05:04 GMT
I don't ever recall the Mammoth being considered viable in Mk2. It may have been the "most viable Gargantuan", but that was a pretty low bar in Mk2 (not counting the Blightgorgers). It was called that because it had the only effective ranged attack of the Gargantuans. Hence, why I'm focusing on the gun itself. Also, its mk2 stats are pretty much irrelevant. The editions are too different for these kinds of comparisons to be helpful.
I rather disagree in this case. The mechanics behind everything still apply now as they did back then. Range and AOE still work the same. RAT still works the same. ROF is different, but far easier for the Garg to use. The only thing that really has changed is what abilities can/cannot synergise with it now and which ones are available.
Sure, you can compare those stats in a vacuum, but that would be ignoring all the system changes between then and now, as well as the changes to steamroller formats and other factions. We're discussing balance and viability, which inherently must include the consideration of other models... Far too many of the latter have changed since mk2 for us to say "well, this was the problem in Mk2, so let's just fix that and we are good"
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 24, 2018 21:10:01 GMT
Sure, you can compare those stats in a vacuum, but that would be ignoring all the system changes between then and now, as well as the changes to steamroller formats and other factions. We're discussing balance and viability, which inherently must include the consideration of other models... Far too many of the latter have changed since mk2 for us to say "well, this was the problem in Mk2, so let's just fix that and we are good" Stats are either good, meh, or bad, and that really hasn't changed from Mk 2 to Mk 3, nor have the mechanics regarding them changed at all (except for CMD). It's not like what Warhammer has gone through recently, after all. What has changed are the special rules and synergies that abound, which is something I acknowledged and you ignored. Granor pointed them out, and I acknowledged them there, too.
Once you have determined what you want the Beast to do, the next thing is to decide what is good to keep on it, and what to synergise.
The gun itself, is only going to synergize with things like Hexeris' Parasite or the Flinger's Flare by itself. I almost want to suggest going Protectorate on it and make it a really nasty gun, but Inaccurate. It's on the back of a giant bipedal elephant, and there's no way that thing is going to be able to aim it effectively.
Melee-wise, it only lacks speed and doing something fancy while in melee, imo. The problem is, so long as we have Rush in a good package, that's not likely to change. It's melee is on par with other non-serpentine Beasts, but also a little behind most of the Colossals. I guess its supposed to make up for that with the advantages Fury brings?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Sept 25, 2018 13:10:20 GMT
Unless hyper-mobile or flying, I don't see a melee focused gargantuan as being effective. Their base is simply too large and there is too much blocking terrain (flags, objectives, obstructions, walls) as well as the ability for jamming infantry to make this concept work.
So we are left with a buff-bot or an artillery piece. I think the most interesting pieces are both. The concept of the piece seems pretty straight forward, so I'm thinking its buff abilities need to be traditional in nature (i.e. non magical). So let's give it ammo types:
Flare: already an option in faction, this would help Slingers and our artillery pieces get more play
Erosion or Poison: Both already accessible in faction, I suspect both would be too strong unless the basic stats on the gun drop significantly. Unlikely.
Crater: Something like this could really buff Skorne's "come to me" game. Throwing down difficult terrain to slow them down while they come to us could be great
Incendiary or High Explosive: Gives the Mammoth some good anti infantry game, something I don't see very often in Imperial Warhost (and probably won't until the Aradus Sentinel gets re-worked)
Burning Ground: Area denial seems to be a staple of the Warmachine Colossals, and they do seem to be the closest analog to the Mammoth.
I stayed away from the Crucible Guard ammo types because they felt too advanced (even though slingers and Mortitheurgy are clearly doing some kinda crazy alchemical-things)
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skormedlover87
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 25, 2018 15:36:25 GMT
It's called Chimestry I think. Chymestry? Whatever, mystical science voodo of blasting powder.
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Post by Charistoph on Sept 25, 2018 17:41:09 GMT
It's called Chimestry I think. Chymestry? Whatever, mystical science voodo of blasting powder. Chemistry is the modern English term, but in days back when it was mystical, it was called alchemy, with alchemical being the adjective form.
Ammo types for the gun with Crater a concept I can see, except Pathfinders would be able to easily ignore it. I would also look at the Commodore for inspiration, as they are of a size. They have the Cannister Spray shot, a slamming cannonball, and an incendiary shot.
Though, if kept to a single type, would a base Crater with Critical Knockdown be favorable and keep its guns up to speed, or should it have Spray and Scather options as well?
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Sept 25, 2018 18:00:11 GMT
It's called Chimestry I think. Chymestry? Whatever, mystical science voodo of blasting powder. Chemistry is the modern English term, but in days back when it was mystical, it was called alchemy, with alchemical being the adjective form.
Ammo types for the gun with Crater a concept I can see, except Pathfinders would be able to easily ignore it. I would also look at the Commodore for inspiration, as they are of a size. They have the Cannister Spray shot, a slamming cannonball, and an incendiary shot.
Though, if kept to a single type, would a base Crater with Critical Knockdown be favorable and keep its guns up to speed, or should it have Spray and Scather options as well?
I would love to see Momentum.
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Post by michael on Sept 25, 2018 18:40:13 GMT
Ammo Types are never the answer.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
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Post by boozy on Sept 25, 2018 19:13:40 GMT
Crazy thought. What if the Mammoth destroyed terrain pieces by advancing either over them, or perhaps making a power attack that brings it B2B with the terrain piece. There is a precedent in Siege1 feat. It could be confined to just walls, or obstructions, or both.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
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Post by gordo on Sept 25, 2018 19:33:14 GMT
Crazy thought. What if the Mammoth destroyed terrain pieces by advancing either over them, or perhaps making a power attack that brings it B2B with the terrain piece. There is a precedent in Siege1 feat. It could be confined to just walls, or obstructions, or both. It definitely has a "I demolish things" look to it, and if it could get rid of walls, or even better, obstructions, that would add some fantastic tech to our shooting. Plus it would really help it deal with its slow speed preventing it from clearing walls.
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