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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 25, 2018 18:52:09 GMT
This just in: I know it’s just the start of the CID for this model, but how does the Supreme Guardian (at 16 points, with 3” thresher on a HoF-powered POW 18 magical blade) exist in the same game as Beast 09? Oh, and it collects souls. And has Arcane Vortex. And can buy attacks. And has a recursion mechanic for grunts. And defensive strike (with is a HoF powered, 3” melee threat, on a huge base). Oh, yeah, and it has a RNG 10, RAT 6, POW 14 gun with a continuous effect.
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Post by methios on Jul 25, 2018 18:55:43 GMT
Def feels like the mow chariot was forgotten when they were handing out battle engine bullcrap.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 25, 2018 18:59:52 GMT
Haha, yeah, I saw that. It can also shoot its own models to get souls and it's the only SPD6 Exalted.
Two of them combined with Zaal will let him resurrect 2 models a turn for 1 fury.
And so on.
Yeah, it's made me so salty I'm going back to Blood Bowl for a while. I genuinely can't look at it without getting sulky. See you all in a few weeks!
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Post by auraco on Jul 25, 2018 19:24:03 GMT
Yeah, each time they show a new battle engine I get the feeling our chariots are really overpriced. How is that thing only 1 more point than the siege chariot...
One thing to note though, the supreme guardian doesn't have pathfinder, and other than the objective it has very few way of getting it.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 25, 2018 19:24:42 GMT
We have the same level of meltdowns every cid cycle. It will get tested and almost certainly become weaker. You will all survive.
Also lmao at the Beast 09 callout, as if he isn't worth every single one of his points and then some.
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Post by Evola on Jul 25, 2018 19:25:09 GMT
Eey guys. You are posting on the wrong subsection. This is Khador not Ret 😜.
Jokes asiden its over the top. It will be changed. Keep giving PP constructive criticism.
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 25, 2018 21:19:29 GMT
To original poster.
This comming from a faction that has a 11pt warjack at two p+s 16 seige weapon melee attacks that has access to fury for p+s 19 melees at 3d6 for damage ore boosting.
A solo with a range 12 pow 8 armor piercing seige weapon cannon.
A faction with access to a 8 point heavy warjack with p+s 16 attacks who can easily be buffed. If it explodes who cares as it can on average remove 16 point battle engines floff the table.
Im not even getting into juggernaughts, feats, buff spells like signs and portents.
And there is over reaction to this battle engine? Really? Go back to basics and play Butcher 1 and watch it melt.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 25, 2018 21:21:13 GMT
The new BE is definitely up there in the stratosphere, but we know the CID cycle will see it toned down. I think a lot of the salt (from Khador specifically) comes from the fact that our CID felt a bit different. Instead of starting with a bonkers model and toning it down, we started with a mediocre battle engine that got a point adjustment and a range increase. I won't say our battle engines are bad, because i think over time they're value is appearing, but we definitely didn't get to experiment in the same realm as many of the other CIDs.
@onijet, i dont mean to invalidate your arguement or anything. But i don't think Khador having good models/siege weapons is where the salt/comparison/jealousy is coming from, rather the way the CIDs are playing out. The idea that Khador's CID felt very static, whereas other CIDs there are models full of rules, old models getting new rules, etc. There is maybe a feeling of being excluded from this.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 25, 2018 21:41:59 GMT
So here is my take from reading PP developers Dev Talks and the Cid and then other conversations. I think where PP has a hard time (and I am not sure that it IS easy) is a way of testing control. This is a problem for Khador because when you line our beat sticks up against other beat sticks....and then buff them with things like S2 and B1 it is like "WOW. Those dudes hit hard. Better dial it back."
But that isn't how "smart" players deal with us. They control the shit out of us. It doesn't MATTER that a jugger is hitting a P+S 22 on three dice when Haley and her Hurricane shot it off the table. Flank on a Zerker looks fantastic until it is blown off the table by a VIndicator. DemoCorp hitting frozen stuff under S2 is terrifying....until it gets pushed 3 inches backwards and can't waddle while someone is scoring 3 points on your turn.
I don't have an easy SOLUTION to this but it is pretty clear that Khador is gets, to quote Chain attack, A minus 1 because of how we look in a play test knife fight and how we look differently in hte SR pack.
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 25, 2018 21:58:50 GMT
@ jonnyboy i can understand that sentiment. Yet i felt the CID was actually dynamic. The only issue that made if feel static was the man-o-war theme. As they are largely speed 4 models and thats their main downside.
But i always have new players adk me if khador is easy to learn and my reply is "Khador is a easy faction to learn, but the hardest faction to master."
To that notion and points of control armies i have this to say. Why not pkay out of theme and bring your own control. (And haley2 and colossal is really just down to a bad positioning as the knockback guns can be easily countered though its harder to play against.)
Anyway back onto topic. I do feel ternions are great at controlling this thing. They can intentionally force your opponent to spend souls to keep it from going stationary and that highly weakens it as a piece, really any staionanry on it makes it useless
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 25, 2018 22:04:09 GMT
If the theme itself wasn't complete balls maybe. I mean i kind of get it. Its a BE that's way over the top because everything else in the theme including theme bonuses is mediocre to meh. The other theme it goes in is going to have a hard time justifying 16 points of non beast for an infantry heavy cataphract style theme force.
Might push the exalted up to playable but I just have a hard time imagining itl ever replace derp turtle at the top end of skorne options.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 25, 2018 22:05:16 GMT
Anyway back onto topic. I do feel ternions are great at controlling this thing. They can intentionally force your opponent to spend souls to keep it from going stationary and that highl w yeakens it as a piece, really any staionanry on it makes it uselessI was pretty sure huge bases can't be made stationary.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Jul 25, 2018 22:05:17 GMT
Irusk1 will stop that BE in his tracks unless he one of the very few options for pathfinder. All the while Irusk and his army will be killing him and his wittle stone buddies
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 25, 2018 22:08:16 GMT
Remember first version of Mow Supressor Tanker? Atanas +1 hit to whole army? Yeah. The broken stuff will get toned down. Unless it's Cryx of course, then it becomes more broken usually.
I'm also not that sure if this thing is that good. It is essentially a 16pt huge based mediocre heavy. Broken BEs usually have broken guns, but this one doesn't.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 25, 2018 22:28:19 GMT
I think some of the frustration is misplaced — after all, this is basically a first draft. But some other frustration from Khador players, and to be honest, this is something that I’ve occasionally felt, I think, seems to come from a feeling that the Khador CID felt kind of restrained in comparison to other factions’ CIDs.
I think the Man-O-War CID was actually a good example of what a CID should be. Somewhat restrained, making sure the new models and the legacy models have a place in the game but aren’t balls out broken. No big surprises in between CID and release, and no feelings of codex creep.
On the other hand, it feels like Khador is one of the few CIDs where that was actually the case — we got some good stuff, but I don’t think we got anything super ballbusting like some of the other factions. They were very careful not to give that to us; doing things like toning down the Suppression Tanker very quickly, and reducing the boxes on the berserker chassis at the last minute because they were worried we might start spamming them like Gaspy3.
On top of that, since we just had our CID, that means it’s going to be a long time before we get another and get showered with goodies, and we’re probably going to be the last to get our zero caster as well.
I’m not super negative and salty on Khador, but by some metrics it feels like we missed out. For example, after all the talk about getting character warjacks into themes to get them on the table more, and how they were being thrown into themes for other factions like Cryx and Ret, that was something that wasn’t touched on in the Khador CID.
On the other hand, I don’t think we are as bad off as some people like to say, and I may be biased because of the grass is greener effect. Hopefully there is stuff in there that we just need to discover and work out.
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