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Post by goodk4t on Jul 23, 2018 11:58:12 GMT
If meet the 60 point MoW hardcap anyways, i would shoot for elims everytime. Vlad 2 without colossal can have 3 free cards and elims no problemo
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 23, 2018 15:06:53 GMT
Has anyone been trying out the assault chariot? Both the bombadiers and assault chariot fill a similar roll and I have yet to figure out which one is better. With the assault chariot i can fit in a second strike tanker, eliminators, and another solo or mechanics.
Right now i've been really liking the assault chariot over bombadiers. It's not so fragile that you can remove it trivially, and almost anything the opponent commits to killing it will be a good piece trade.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 23, 2018 15:38:23 GMT
Yeah! I put one into my Irusk2 list pretty early on, and I've never looked back. Consistently useful as a harassing piece thanks to the KD stuff, and it is absolute murder into a lot of units.
Even when there's no units around it can be great; it's not too hard to get a charge away that KDs 2 jacks and lets you shoot the backline support.
It's way more durable than people think, partially because of its threat range; 17" means that it can almost always shoot back at what shoots it, and 10" range plus reposition means that a lot of melee troops have a hard time catching it. It's annoying enough that if I make a sacrifice play with it they really do have to deal with it, and it's independent enough that I can send it wherever the hell I like.
Unless I really needed P14-16 shots, I wouldn't take the Bombardiers.
EDIT: Oh, and of course there's the cost. the fact that it's 7 points cheaper (or 2 points and a free solo cheaper) means you can get more options in your army.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 23, 2018 17:42:05 GMT
Yeah! I put one into my Irusk2 list pretty early on, and I've never looked back. Consistently useful as a harassing piece thanks to the KD stuff, and it is absolute murder into a lot of units. Even when there's no units around it can be great; it's not too hard to get a charge away that KDs 2 jacks and lets you shoot the backline support. It's way more durable than people think, partially because of its threat range; 17" means that it can almost always shoot back at what shoots it, and 10" range plus reposition means that a lot of melee troops have a hard time catching it. It's annoying enough that if I make a sacrifice play with it they really do have to deal with it, and it's independent enough that I can send it wherever the hell I like. Unless I really needed P14-16 shots, I wouldn't take the Bombardiers. EDIT: Oh, and of course there's the cost. the fact that it's 7 points cheaper (or 2 points and a free solo cheaper) means you can get more options in your army. Hmmmm..... Now as Load Chris rightly points out everyone's meta is different but I really don't see its (Assualt Chariot) value into Primar Terrors (you would be at dice minus 5 or 7 into Chosen who are healing right back up. Champions a bit better at dice -4 but with only 2 to 4 attacks not chewing through their Sanguine Bond. Definately not much (any?) game into Cruciable guards ARM 20 medium infantry or the Def gazzillion no blast Rocket men. I "Guess" you could try to charge a jack and shoot out Alyce (yeah!) or Propero (good but hard at Dice -4 and likely one shield guard so you really would need all 4 shots and roll all those 7s to hit) What match ups _IS_ it good into? Conversely, Bombers are Decent to good into all of those. You can CRA into Chosen and start to remove them. You can do the same and start to whittle down the CG jacks (or the Assault infantry as well). Innately more volume of attacks (6 shots) and then mini feat cranks it to potentially 12 (but I never get to aim ALL of the unit in most games. Now I CAN see the Irusk2 SEIGE Chariot cause 3 dice POW 20 with Slam and Pow 20 collatoral is a REAL thing.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 23, 2018 19:11:14 GMT
Now I CAN see the Irusk2 SEIGE Chariot cause 3 dice POW 20 with Slam and Pow 20 collatoral is a REAL thing. Man I wish I had more time to actually play this game. I’ve been thinking about Irusk 2 and the ability to hot swap FFE across the Siege Chariot and Victor. Now, THAT’S something I really do want to try. Because Irusk doesn’t need so much support, if you’re willing to go down to one solo you can fit all 3 units, Victor, and the Chariot in. Hmmmm.... Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Supreme Kommandant Irusk - WJ: +27 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27) Man-O-War Siege Chariot - PC: 15 FREE SOLO: Kovnik or Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 4 Grunts: 14 - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich - PC: 0 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 23, 2018 19:22:42 GMT
Would this be the Chris who was on the podcast saying about how good the Assault Chariot was? And that he runs one with V2 into Primal Terrors?
I agree that the Chariot is less effective against some targets over others, but given that it can advance move and is SPD7 RNG10, why would I go for the targets I have the hardest time hurting? I can go wherever I like. I might not be great into Chosen, but my Strike Tankers can murder them. In the meantime, those Warspears that are 12/16 look like they'll melt easily. Ditto the Warmongers. Rotwings as a jamming unit? Nope.
Sure, there are matchups where it's less effective (My Swan buddy used to run Double Lances, Double ARM buff, for example), but there are also matches where I basically win because it exists. Infantry swarms are a hard matchup for Armoured Corps, but what does your opponent choose when faced with an Armoured Corps list with an infantry wrecker on wheels?
The way I see it is that I already hit plenty hard. I need help with the swarms, and help with the speed, and the Assault Chariot can cover both. The matchups where it's been great far outnumber the ones where it's been bad for me.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 23, 2018 19:36:04 GMT
Yeah! I put one into my Irusk2 list pretty early on, and I've never looked back. Consistently useful as a harassing piece thanks to the KD stuff, and it is absolute murder into a lot of units. Even when there's no units around it can be great; it's not too hard to get a charge away that KDs 2 jacks and lets you shoot the backline support. It's way more durable than people think, partially because of its threat range; 17" means that it can almost always shoot back at what shoots it, and 10" range plus reposition means that a lot of melee troops have a hard time catching it. It's annoying enough that if I make a sacrifice play with it they really do have to deal with it, and it's independent enough that I can send it wherever the hell I like. Unless I really needed P14-16 shots, I wouldn't take the Bombardiers. EDIT: Oh, and of course there's the cost. the fact that it's 7 points cheaper (or 2 points and a free solo cheaper) means you can get more options in your army. Hmmmm..... Now as Load Chris rightly points out everyone's meta is different but I really don't see its (Assualt Chariot) value into Primar Terrors (you would be at dice minus 5 or 7 into Chosen who are healing right back up. Champions a bit better at dice -4 but with only 2 to 4 attacks not chewing through their Sanguine Bond. Definately not much (any?) game into Cruciable guards ARM 20 medium infantry or the Def gazzillion no blast Rocket men. I "Guess" you could try to charge a jack and shoot out Alyce (yeah!) or Propero (good but hard at Dice -4 and likely one shield guard so you really would need all 4 shots and roll all those 7s to hit) What match ups _IS_ it good into? Conversely, Bombers are Decent to good into all of those. You can CRA into Chosen and start to remove them. You can do the same and start to whittle down the CG jacks (or the Assault infantry as well). Innately more volume of attacks (6 shots) and then mini feat cranks it to potentially 12 (but I never get to aim ALL of the unit in most games. Now I CAN see the Irusk2 SEIGE Chariot cause 3 dice POW 20 with Slam and Pow 20 collatoral is a REAL thing. So primal terrors and trolls have been my two primary matchups. I don't think either are a good solid drop into primal terrors. Warmongers stomp both of them unless your dice are hot. Both the assault chariot and bombers kill 1-2 warmongers and then will get charged and most likely die. There's not much available to us that can take their charge though. They both feel solid into trolls. The assault chariot especially. Able to kill a lot of their infantry and pose enough threat to have them commit in on the chariot.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 23, 2018 19:56:29 GMT
Hmmmm..... Now as Load Chris rightly points out everyone's meta is different but I really don't see its (Assualt Chariot) value into Primar Terrors (you would be at dice minus 5 or 7 into Chosen who are healing right back up. Champions a bit better at dice -4 but with only 2 to 4 attacks not chewing through their Sanguine Bond. Definately not much (any?) game into Cruciable guards ARM 20 medium infantry or the Def gazzillion no blast Rocket men. I "Guess" you could try to charge a jack and shoot out Alyce (yeah!) or Propero (good but hard at Dice -4 and likely one shield guard so you really would need all 4 shots and roll all those 7s to hit) What match ups _IS_ it good into? Conversely, Bombers are Decent to good into all of those. You can CRA into Chosen and start to remove them. You can do the same and start to whittle down the CG jacks (or the Assault infantry as well). Innately more volume of attacks (6 shots) and then mini feat cranks it to potentially 12 (but I never get to aim ALL of the unit in most games. Now I CAN see the Irusk2 SEIGE Chariot cause 3 dice POW 20 with Slam and Pow 20 collatoral is a REAL thing. So primal terrors and trolls have been my two primary matchups. I don't think either are a good solid drop into primal terrors. Warmongers stomp both of them unless your dice are hot. Both the assault chariot and bombers kill 1-2 warmongers and then will get charged and most likely die. There's not much available to us that can take their charge though. They both feel solid into trolls. The assault chariot especially. Able to kill a lot of their infantry and pose enough threat to have them commit in on the chariot. Hmmm..... Seige Chariot can kill off a Chosen and possible 2 (depending on slams/distance and and angles) and then repo to 13. That is outside of non-buffed charge range....AND has 2 clouds to block LOS if that is an issue. Bombers a bit more problematic but you can position in a way against large bases to minimize the number of chosen that SURVIVE which are within 12 inches. Now I agree that Assault has better time with the stupid birds (aka Rotwings) but again, 2/3 of the time it is rolling just 2 shots...needing 7s if memory serves as to silly birds defense. I guess my bottom line is that I see a role for chariots - but it feels like Seige+Bombers is better than Assault subbing for the bombers and then something else.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 24, 2018 5:31:08 GMT
You have to also consider that Chris is running it with V2 and using Hand of Fate...
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Post by borderprince on Jul 24, 2018 5:57:38 GMT
Has anyone been trying out the assault chariot? Both the bombadiers and assault chariot fill a similar roll and I have yet to figure out which one is better. With the assault chariot i can fit in a second strike tanker, eliminators, and another solo or mechanics. Right now i've been really liking the assault chariot over bombadiers. It's not so fragile that you can remove it trivially, and almost anything the opponent commits to killing it will be a good piece trade.
Basic summary - I prefer the Bombardiers with Kozlov, but can see the potential value with some other casters.
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Post by maxmaino on Jul 24, 2018 8:14:28 GMT
I play the same pair list with only a Little change in my Butcher3 version. I try olso Irusk2 in AC and is realy good but vlad cover better the new steamroller
War Room Army
Khador - Butcher 3
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Spriggan - PC: 17 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Devastator - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 24, 2018 12:33:05 GMT
I think FFE on single damage roll guns is not the most efficient use of it. You get 1 attack boost and 1 damage boost per 1 focus which is very minor improvement compared to usual 1 focus per 1 boost. Meanwhile if you put it on spray tanker or aoe chariot you will get a lot of boosts.
Assault chariot+hof seems like infantry muncher supreme. If it's sub arm 20 and not immune to blasts then it's dead.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 24, 2018 13:03:30 GMT
FFE on a High Explosive Blast is great, as is HoF/SnP. You get so much extra damage, and it is also generally something that pushes the blasts far enough along the curve to be dangerous into a wider range of things. (I suspect OW2 CoS would achieve much the same, but I don't own her.)
But I wouldn't discount FFE on single shots, particularly with things like the Siege Chariot or the Strike Tanker. You get one high-value shot at reasonable RAT, but they both still need 8 to hit a Warpwolf, for example. Shifting that from 42% to 84% is of far more use than the extra 3.5 damage.
Blasts make better use of the damage boost, single shot makes better use of the accuracy boost. (IMO)
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Post by auraco on Jul 24, 2018 13:23:21 GMT
I think FFE on single damage roll guns is not the most efficient use of it. You get 1 attack boost and 1 damage boost per 1 focus which is very minor improvement compared to usual 1 focus per 1 boost. Meanwhile if you put it on spray tanker or aoe chariot you will get a lot of boosts.
Assault chariot+hof seems like infantry muncher supreme. If it's sub arm 20 and not immune to blasts then it's dead.
Important part in bold. The thing is, most infantry that's played is either high arm, immune to blast, or shoots from very far away. The list of target for the assault chariot against competitive list is awefully small.
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Post by chickenslayer on Jul 24, 2018 14:06:11 GMT
So first up, the advanced move is why you play the chariot and by far its greatest strength. It's also why comparing it to Bombardiers is incredibly flawed, because Bombardiers don't get to move 14" on bottom of 1 and then repo and extra 3 just casually. It's actually kinda stupid how strong that benefit is: Just having one of these things stops your opponent who goes first from flat out running all their mans straight at you, deploying their solos in super aggressive positions and, if they're going second, screws with their positioning by forcing the infantry to spread out. The effectiveness of Advanced Move cannot be overstated.
Second, yes the gun on the Assault Chariot is designed to be abused with Hand of Fate or SnP. With those buffs you're looking at killing something like ARM 18 Trolls under Skarre 3 on average rolls, with the direct shot being more likely and you rolling in with at least two shots. Plus the gun doesn't have to be nuclear every turn because the chariot is also quite mobile. You can kite most melee units to good effect, even those with Vengeance.
And the thing is, from experience I've been surprised how effective the thing is even into otherwise bad matchups. The direct hits are still POW 12 so even all this crap that's ARM 20 or whatever and immune to blast still will get milled by the shots. Like an example matchup I was surpised with was Madrak 1 Champion Bricks, which actually have serious trouble with an aiming chariot with Hand of Fate. The guy getting directly hit is still taking a dice off 6 damage roll, frequently 3 of them, whilst the blast damage will chip down a lot of those bricks. Similar deal with Ogryn: Chariots are surprisingly good against Warmongers and the like.
Furthermore, because you have both advanced move and good mobility, you can hit opponents where they don't have their defensive buffs. Most lists, after all, cannot actually make all their guys be unshootable under All The Buffs: there's going to be some that have to spread out due to scenario or terrain or just won't have as crazy stats. Like in PT they're not going to generally run *entirely* Chosen, there's going to be some regular Ogryn lurking around that you can pick on. And even if it's all Chosen the auras from the Blight Bringer cannot actually cover all the models if forced to spread out so you can start picking on the weaker units.
Finally in melee the thing impacts at POW 15 with 3 dice and knocks down on hit, so even if the gun is useless against their front line it does a lot of melee damage when it charges in. Like matchups where you think it's got no targets it frequently is a Throw piece so you chuck it at their biggest heavy or clump of Chosen, knock down a bunch of models and do some serious damage to them then start carpet bombing their support. Then you move up models to next turn kill whatever's going to kill the Chariot.
Now personally they're both matchup dependent and quite swappable so pick whichever is more suitable for the situation and go nuts. Like in the Vlad 2 list I've got I'm going to experiement with shaving a point from the battle group and upgrading the Assault to a Siege for the Ossrum and Slayer matchup, as well as to try something new. But don't write off the humble Assault Chariot without actually putting it on the table. And also consider how the rest of the list interacts with its kit and can help it, say, strip the Dig In off of models or just come in after a bunch of Sentinels or What Have You kill it in melee after it's been tossed in there like a dart and then shotgun a bunch of models in the face.
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