Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 5, 2018 20:51:21 GMT
Also have you tried marshalling a jack on a forge seer to serve as magic weapon bot? From my experience I've found that it's simply not enough... Tim Banky *was using B3 + Ruin + Marshaled Jack as a Ghost Fleet drop. If that's not a good endorsement for a magical load out, I don't know what is *Tim Banky is a WM monster, and the true King of the North IMO.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 5, 2018 21:19:46 GMT
I stand by what I said: Your list building is schizophrenic because you're worried about too many specific threats and trying to make a list that can fight it all. You're making a weak list that makes it easier for people who are concerned about Butcher3, while not actually making your list much better against the matchups you're terrified of. If Crucible Guard and other gunlines are so prevalent in your meta, I would recommend Old Witch2 in WGK to deal with those and then tool Butcher3 to fight bricks. Except that OW2 in WGK is pretty bad into Crucible Guard. So many of their powerful anti-infantry ranged attacks are sprays (which she does nothing to hamper), and the assassination threat against an huge-based-warcaster is so strong.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 5, 2018 21:24:03 GMT
Also have you tried marshalling a jack on a forge seer to serve as magic weapon bot? From my experience I've found that it's simply not enough... Tim Banky *was using B3 + Ruin + Marshaled Jack as a Ghost Fleet drop. If that's not a good endorsement for a magical load out, I don't know what is *Tim Banky is a WM monster, and the true King of the North IMO. I think the issue, Ganso, is that this doesn't help you into Grymkin, Skarre1, or Denny2, the real incorporeal menaces in the current meta; ghost fleet is last year's problem. That jack marshalled jack doesn't ignore stealth (unless you also bring a Spriggan), so it is not very effective against Gremlin Swarms. You can hope to deviate onto and kill with blast, but that's not reliable. Butcher and Ruin have a hard time dealing with Gremlin Swarms blocking landing spots as well, because they can't be moved, and Butcher may have a hard time with utilizing his spell kit to move things around due to the Ruin Arcana and Arcane Vortex. There is some game there, but I don't know if it's enough to be an answer.
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Post by bearstronaut on Jul 5, 2018 21:42:22 GMT
I stand by what I said: Your list building is schizophrenic because you're worried about too many specific threats and trying to make a list that can fight it all. You're making a weak list that makes it easier for people who are concerned about Butcher3, while not actually making your list much better against the matchups you're terrified of. If Crucible Guard and other gunlines are so prevalent in your meta, I would recommend Old Witch2 in WGK to deal with those and then tool Butcher3 to fight bricks. Except that OW2 in WGK is pretty bad into Crucible Guard. So many of their powerful anti-infantry ranged attacks are sprays (which she does nothing to hamper), and the assassination threat against an huge-based-warcaster is so strong. OW2 making Rocketmen RNG 0 is bad? You are wrong, sir. Things in CG Windstorm drops to less than 10 RNG: Infantry Storm Troopers Vindicator Dragons Breath Rocket Baldwin w/o Snipe Vulcan Main Gun McKay and Railless Main gun Vanguard Things in CG Windstorm drops to RNG 5 or less: Combat Alchemists Hutchuck Gorman Rocketmen Sorry, but a couple of spray 8s and 10s that miss out on all the combos the other guns in the faction usually provide will not convince me that OW2 doesn't hose CG gunlines.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 5, 2018 21:50:02 GMT
Except that OW2 in WGK is pretty bad into Crucible Guard. So many of their powerful anti-infantry ranged attacks are sprays (which she does nothing to hamper), and the assassination threat against an huge-based-warcaster is so strong. OW2 making Rocketmen RNG 0 is bad? You are wrong, sir. Things in CG Windstorm drops to less than 10 RNG: Infantry Storm Troopers Vindicator Dragons Breath Rocket Baldwin w/o Snipe Vulcan Main Gun McKay and Railless Main gun Vanguard Things in CG Windstorm drops to RNG 5 or less: Combat Alchemists Hutchuck Gorman Rocketmen Sorry, but a couple of spray 8s and 10s that miss out on all the combos the other guns in the faction usually provide will not convince me that OW2 doesn't hose CG gunlines. I never mentioned Rocketmen because they are not CG's strong shooting unit. The Vulcan, the Suppressor, the Retaliator, and the Railless Interceptor's sprays will be killing OW's infantry, not the things that you mentioned. This comes from me playing Crucible Guard and experiencing what their strongest anti-infantry shooting tools are, not from reading War Room and looking for models who would be affected by Wind Storm. If your opponent brings a bunch of Rocketmen, yes, laugh at them with your OW2 list. I'll laugh at them too, because they are doing it wrong. If your opponent brings a Vulcan and a Suppressor on Prospero, cry as you place your OW2 WGK list on the table, because all your infantry are about to die...
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Post by auraco on Jul 5, 2018 22:01:03 GMT
Tim Banky *was using B3 + Ruin + Marshaled Jack as a Ghost Fleet drop. If that's not a good endorsement for a magical load out, I don't know what is *Tim Banky is a WM monster, and the true King of the North IMO. I think the issue, Ganso, is that this doesn't help you into Grymkin, Skarre1, or Denny2, the real incorporeal menaces in the current meta; ghost fleet is last year's problem. That jack marshalled jack doesn't ignore stealth (unless you also bring a Spriggan), so it is not very effective against Gremlin Swarms. You can hope to deviate onto and kill with blast, but that's not reliable. Butcher and Ruin have a hard time dealing with Gremlin Swarms blocking landing spots as well, because they can't be moved, and Butcher may have a hard time with utilizing his spell kit to move things around due to the Ruin Arcana and Arcane Vortex. There is some game there, but I don't know if it's enough to be an answer. The only game where I saw Banky playing Butcher3 in Jaws was against Shade3 Ghost fleet, not exactly against the boogeyman version of the list. I think Juris is right when he say ghost fleet was last year's problem, I haven't seen Jaws in general perform against cryx or grymkin since the point cost nerf. Needing a marshalled jack and a spriggan to take care of gremlin swarm is just counter efficient, you need these heavies to be doing work, not using 40 points worth of models trying to kill 3 pts solos while there are very dangerous heavies on the other side of the board.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 5, 2018 22:27:04 GMT
Your guys observations are valid, I just disagree on the amount of Magic solutions one needs to include.
A&H are 8 points that are relevant maybe 20% of matches. If you want to get work out of them 100% of the time you need Val. Those are too many points for something whose efficiency depend so much on matchups.
Right now nobody can be expected to cover everything in a two list pairing. Most you can do is give yourself just enough tools to have a fighting chance.
We need to be able to do more with less.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 5, 2018 22:40:40 GMT
Your guys observations are valid, I just disagree on the amount of Magic solutions one needs to include. A&H are 8 points that are relevant maybe 20% of matches. If you want to get work out of them 100% of the time you need Val. Those are too many points for something whose efficiency depend so much on matchups. Right now nobody can be expected to cover everything in a two list pairing. Most you can do is give yourself just enough tools to have a fighting chance. We need to be able to do more with less. The Empress's "Lessons Learned from my Depression-Era Grandmother: Do more with less!"
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 23:38:33 GMT
Your guys observations are valid, I just disagree on the amount of Magic solutions one needs to include. A&H are 8 points that are relevant maybe 20% of matches. If you want to get work out of them 100% of the time you need Val. Those are too many points for something whose efficiency depend so much on matchups. Right now nobody can be expected to cover everything in a two list pairing. Most you can do is give yourself just enough tools to have a fighting chance. We need to be able to do more with less. +1 Why I think you go, if the points work, with a Spriggan (cause destealth is good) with a sniper to get magic off the objective and call it a day. Ruin, of course, is great into the Wraith Engine. but a lot of this is meta dependent. We just don't have a lot of cryx right now and I don't travel to the biggest cons....
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Post by josephkerr on Jul 6, 2018 0:48:28 GMT
You will always lose to this list and any list that riles you up like this, because you'll start the game every time thinking you're already on the backfoot. I can't tell if you started this thread wanting for people tell you that your list is perfect, or so that we could all have a pity party about Crucible Guard. Either way I can tell that you are dug in very hard with your opinions, so I don't see there being any progress made. My last genuine piece of advice is to repeat what I think is very important with your list building: Do not play Butcher3 if you're this concerned about getting shot off the table. We have casters with good anti-gun tech that can wipe battlegroups off the table. Khador does not have trouble killing heavies or colossals. What is your list into Locke with a Vulcan? There’s a lot of scuttlebutt that it’s a touh matchup. Do u have a list that’s effective?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 6, 2018 1:43:07 GMT
Sand, I normally love your lists but this one feels like I’m putting my underpants on backwards.
Some thoughts... - The spriggan on Malakov isn’t so great since he wants a MAT 7 beater. Spriggan should go on Butcher. - Ditch the Orgun and squeeze in a Rager. - Once you have the Rager shield guard you can probably drop to one Devastator.
I came up with this, still trying to go with the flavor of what you were doing.
War Room Army
Khador - B3
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov - WJ: +28 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Spriggan - PC: 17 - Rager - PC: 10
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Grolar - PC: 18 Gobber Tinker - PC: 2 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8 - Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 0
If you don’t want A&H and V and instead want more beatstickery, drop them for a Berserker...if S0 is avail then drop the Marksman and then you have another Junior in the list and that’s actually starting to feel pretty good if your other matchup covers hard incorp.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 6, 2018 6:41:01 GMT
I don't think it's worth playing or building Jaws lists without Sorscha0. Build and plan your lists around her existing because she changes everything... Until then play other stuff or proxy her.
I also don't really see any reason to be taking a Spriggan in the list? It should probably be S0 with a jack that doesn't require focus, like a Rager which would also let you drop the Bokur...
Don't agree with people on the Devastator though, it's completely fine with B3 and I think you could get away with running 3 of them even. It doesn't 'do nothing', and while an immovable ARM 23 model with bulldoze doesn't actually have to attack to do important things it's quite capable of trashing stuff with SoD. It's also able to trample, slam, and head butt without opening, which thanks to Energiser is a lot easier to set up for.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 6, 2018 8:50:05 GMT
You will always lose to this list and any list that riles you up like this, because you'll start the game every time thinking you're already on the backfoot. I can't tell if you started this thread wanting for people tell you that your list is perfect, or so that we could all have a pity party about Crucible Guard. Either way I can tell that you are dug in very hard with your opinions, so I don't see there being any progress made. My last genuine piece of advice is to repeat what I think is very important with your list building: Do not play Butcher3 if you're this concerned about getting shot off the table. We have casters with good anti-gun tech that can wipe battlegroups off the table. Khador does not have trouble killing heavies or colossals. What is your list into Locke with a Vulcan? There’s a lot of scuttlebutt that it’s a touh matchup. Do u have a list that’s effective? I beat the crap out of it with Irusk2 Armoured Corps last night. As it's that guy's first game with CG I wouldn't want to read too much into it, but overall his low model count made it pretty easy for me to apply scenario pressure, and once I took down the Dragon Breath Rockets I didn't feel particularly threatened. I think that the fact I was playing a backline caster who didn't use jacks made her feat only a minor inconvenience, and it wasn't easy to trigger RtW against my ARM21 guys. Fire for Effect, Battle Lust and Ragman made cracking his stuff simply a matter of getting there. It'll be interesting to see how the Locke lists pan out; I'm really not convinced the Vulcan is the way forwards (based on my absolutely minimal experience facing it!). I reckon Redlined Toros for efficient trades will be more prevalent; 15" threat with Road to War, averaging 30+ damage to an ARM20 heavy without Rust or Jackhammer? Oof. If you throw in Rust and a couple of Vindicator shots, you're looking at one-rounding Colossals.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 6, 2018 13:59:23 GMT
I don't think it's worth playing or building Jaws lists without Sorscha0. Build and plan your lists around her existing because she changes everything... Until then play other stuff or proxy her. I also don't really see any reason to be taking a Spriggan in the list? It should probably be S0 with a jack that doesn't require focus, like a Rager which would also let you drop the Bokur... Don't agree with people on the Devastator though, it's completely fine with B3 and I think you could get away with running 3 of them even. It doesn't 'do nothing', and while an immovable ARM 23 model with bulldoze doesn't actually have to attack to do important things it's quite capable of trashing stuff with SoD. It's also able to trample, slam, and head butt without opening, which thanks to Energiser is a lot easier to set up for. 1) Agreed about Sorscha0. As stated Andy is something of a place holder. Probably will shift a bit more than a straight swap but the core concepts remain. 2) Spriggan is there cause it synergizes with the snipers. Assuming magic weapons from an objective you now have a way of removing at range swarm. Good times. Since this is designed around a hordes+ CG drop I want that anti-swarm tech in there since I have anti tough with SoD. It is also the list I intend to drop when their Anti-AC drop is "dudes" (Such as the Shae list I lost to about 2-3 weeks ago - so many pirates....). But at 17 it is a point sink from which you COULD get the points for a Rage..... 3) I would love to squeeze a rager in rather than the bokur but other than dropping the Spriggan (or going just one clam) I can't figure out the points. 4) While ways around it (throws) the Devestator is designed to not move and start the piece trade WITHOUT the cost of a huge base model ONe clam MAY be enough - but it would not let me start the piece tradining advantagously against Double Chosen (since the hell mouths can't move the jacks he can't "cheat the trade" by dragging the jack to a place from whihc the chosen/gollub can safely kill it without risking counter attack). Why I like the ARM 23 is NOT so much on paper but on the board - if you try to kill the devestator with infantry you have to clump. Even if you Repo and are at ARM 19 with 8 boxes you probably end up pretty clumped. And Clumped is precisely the game state Butcher3 LOVES to see. 5) Another thing I have mused about in the original list would be juggling things with Forge Seer for Yuri and then finding points (jugger?) for a Maurader under it for Magic weapons+Crush options into the Huge Bases (Blight Bringer, Vulcan, etc.). That gets really viable with S0 - where you can get it going faster with BC, Give it Crush, and then send it off after the Huge base commits. Lets see how it goes Sunday. Head cold but drinking tea and I hope to play into a player who has tuned up his PT double champions list. My first two games with it against his 40+ showed pretty well. Again, baring illsness I hope I also get it into Double Champions/Northkin - a match up which S3 struggles with (but I think my Vlad2 list would be generally fine).
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 6, 2018 14:01:02 GMT
I think S0 should go in addition to Malakov, not replace him. Put the Butcher's Jugg on her. B3 can't properly fuel and buff more than 1 jack (which is Ruin) anyway.
I support the double Devastators. B3 in Jaws has no shooting, he will have to tank the alpha, best jack for this task is Devastator.
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